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Poor GWR Marketing of Improved Services - M4 Congestion.

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Envoy

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Shhhh that's my 'secret' way to avoid the peak-time queues!

But seriously, the Southern Distributor Road is the way traffic for Newport should be going, leaving the M4 for those going further west. It could do with dualling all the way to Jn 23 and some junction improvements but they are mostly in industrial / commercial areas so not to too controversial.

Improving the Southern Route is not likely to solve the problems on the present M4. What is needed is the so called ‘Black Route’ M4 to the south of Newport as shown in this video:>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wa...possible-route-of-m4-relief-road-silent-video
 
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Envoy

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Actually parking your car at Newport, Cardiff Central or Severn Tunnel is a major negative to commuting. That’s before you even look at the actual reliability of the service, and your other end journey to your place of work.

A 12hr stay at Newport or Cardiff Central carpark if you can find a space, is many hundreds of pounds a week.

As for the M4 I’m not convinced the congestion is caused by the tunnel in its own right, it’s I think the faux 50mph speed from Coldar to Tradger Park.

It amazing how both directions slow to a stand then crawl the length of the “limit”.

But hey it’s all about reducing pollution isn’t it, don’t the WAG realise more and more people are coming off at Magor, then using the southern domestic link road clogging up south Newport causing more pollution across a greater area!

I am pleased that parking is expensive at Cardiff Central & Newport stations as it deters people from driving their cars into the centre of these congested cities. What they should be doing is using the bus or the local train network - something which the South East Wales Metro hopes to improve on the present local train system.

The tunnel is the main cause of the congestion on the M4 at Newport. Mark Drakeford (First Minister of Wales) set up a ‘Commission’ to find ways of solving this congestion after he refused to have a new M4 built to the south. So, this ‘Commission’ came up with the brilliant idea of extending the 50mph speed limit on the M4 around Newport. When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

I bet this Commission did not look at all at the situation on the railway as I highlighted in this thread - which mainly deals with GWR as they are the company who primarily transport east-west passengers through this area. I bet this Commission did not even know about the increased number of seats now on this line as a result of the mini HST’s, 165/6’s along with the IET’s - which why I feel that GWR have failed to properly highlight this. (Transport for Wales should also be promoting the fact that 170’s on now on the Cheltenham to south Wales stoppers). Those who always drive will probably be unaware of these changes.
 

jimm

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So, it takes competition from competing companies to drive down the prices - which explains why GWR are objecting to Grand Union operating between south Wales & London. See PDF:>
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...and-union-trains-track-access-application.pdf


So, your irrational view suggests that a flow with a lot of people would be cheaper than a flow between 2 places with fewer passengers. Obviously the flow between Newport & Oxford would be less than the flow between London & Oxford but that is no reason why they should be expected to pay a higher rate per mile for the former.

It just takes a completely different set of circumstances. And if you can tell us where the paths for Grand Whatever name it is this week's services to get between Paddington and Reading are going to be found, Network Rail would love to hear from you.

In what way is it irrational? Rail fares have not been charged on a per mile basis in this country since the 1960s. High volume flows get lots of capacity provided but to cope with the peaks and troughs in demand, operators come up with ways to fill seats in the quiet periods of the day/week, by doing things like selling advances for £5.50.
 

Wychwood93

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I am pleased that parking is expensive at Cardiff Central & Newport stations as it deters people from driving their cars into the centre of these congested cities. What they should be doing is using the bus or the local train network - something which the South East Wales Metro hopes to improve on the present local train system.

The tunnel is the main cause of the congestion on the M4 at Newport. Mark Drakeford (First Minister of Wales) set up a ‘Commission’ to find ways of solving this congestion after he refused to have a new M4 built to the south. So, this ‘Commission’ came up with the brilliant idea of extending the 50mph speed limit on the M4 around Newport. When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

I bet this Commission did not look at all at the situation on the railway as I highlighted in this thread - which mainly deals with GWR as they are the company who primarily transport east-west passengers through this area. I bet this Commission did not even know about the increased number of seats now on this line as a result of the mini HST’s, 165/6’s along with the IET’s - which why I feel that GWR have failed to properly highlight this. (Transport for Wales should also be promoting the fact that 170’s on now on the Cheltenham to south Wales stoppers). Those who always drive will probably be unaware of these changes.
A one week pass at Newport is £40.
See: https://www.ncp.co.uk/find-a-car-park/car-parks/newport-station-tfw/
 

HowardGWR

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The tunnel is the main cause of the congestion on the M4 at Newport. Mark Drakeford (First Minister of Wales) set up a ‘Commission’ to find ways of solving this congestion after he refused to have a new M4 built to the south. So, this ‘Commission’ came up with the brilliant idea of extending the 50mph speed limit on the M4 around Newport. When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

No, you are wrong and the minister's advisors are right. The throughput will be higher at the lower speeds, especially also, in the case of the Newport tunnels, if the reduction from three lanes to two is managed by advance lower speeds. Have you not seen how this works on the M25 where they have speed controls (as an example). Traffic jams occur when vehicles suddenly brake from high speed when traveling too close to one another, and leave merging until the last moment. This effect can be observed even on single carriageways. If you want to solve a jam ahead on a single carriageway, just brake gradually ahead of the jam that you see forming in front of you keeping the traffic behind you down to a lower speed and then roll gently forward until you see the concertina effect in front of you expanding again. I do this often and have solved many a jam forming, but it needs a continuous flow coming the other way, otherwise sure enough, an idiot will overtake you and race up to the car in front and then brake heavily (sigh).
 

Chris125

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When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

Eh? The faster vehicles move, the more space is needed between them which reduces capacity. Road traffic slows down through a bottleneck for good reason.
 

Dai Corner

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The tunnel is the main cause of the congestion on the M4 at Newport. Mark Drakeford (First Minister of Wales) set up a ‘Commission’ to find ways of solving this congestion after he refused to have a new M4 built to the south. So, this ‘Commission’ came up with the brilliant idea of extending the 50mph speed limit on the M4 around Newport. When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

The key difference between water and traffic is that water is isn't compressible. You can drive closer together safely at 50mph than at 70mph, and cars, vans, coaches and HGVs will all be travelling at the same speed.

This actually increases the number of vehicles that can get through per minute.

Variable speed limits attempt to optimise the flow further, though obviously you reach a point where the road is completely overwhelmed and congestion results.
 

Dai Corner

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Improving the Southern Route is not likely to solve the problems on the present M4. What is needed is the so called ‘Black Route’ M4 to the south of Newport as shown in this video:>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wa...possible-route-of-m4-relief-road-silent-video

I was talking about the current situation. In my experience the A4810 is remarkably quiet even when the M4 is badly congested.

I tend to agree that we need the black route, even though my house is uncomfortably close and I'd suffer increased noise and air pollution.
 

Envoy

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In what way is it irrational? Rail fares have not been charged on a per mile basis in this country since the 1960s. High volume flows get lots of capacity provided but to cope with the peaks and troughs in demand, operators come up with ways to fill seats in the quiet periods of the day/week, by doing things like selling advances for £5.50.

The fares I quoted to Oxford from both London & Newport were for off-peak returns buying on the day (Saturday). So, we can expect spare capacity on these trains on most Saturdays when major events are not taking place. Therefore, I stick with my view that it is not fair that people travelling from Newport to Oxford are charged so much more than those travelling from London. The relatively high volume flow on the south Wales to London line should not pose a problem. That leaves us with just the short distance from Didcot Parkway to Oxford - which I would have thought would also not cause an overloading problem for GWR.

Members of the public who are not familiar with the rail fares system will simply see the high price of the through ticket on the GWR site and chances are they would not make the journey or go by car. Many members of the public are also not aware that fares can be considerably cheaper on weekends - especially at the times most people wish to travel.
 

Tom Quinne

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I am pleased that parking is expensive at Cardiff Central & Newport stations as it deters people from driving their cars into the centre of these congested cities. What they should be doing is using the bus or the local train network - something which the South East Wales Metro hopes to improve on the present local train system.

The tunnel is the main cause of the congestion on the M4 at Newport. Mark Drakeford (First Minister of Wales) set up a ‘Commission’ to find ways of solving this congestion after he refused to have a new M4 built to the south. So, this ‘Commission’ came up with the brilliant idea of extending the 50mph speed limit on the M4 around Newport. When a river flows through a narrow point - the flow speeds up. When the M4 goes through a narrow point, the Welsh Government decide to slow the ‘flow’ down. Enough said!

I bet this Commission did not look at all at the situation on the railway as I highlighted in this thread - which mainly deals with GWR as they are the company who primarily transport east-west passengers through this area. I bet this Commission did not even know about the increased number of seats now on this line as a result of the mini HST’s, 165/6’s along with the IET’s - which why I feel that GWR have failed to properly highlight this. (Transport for Wales should also be promoting the fact that 170’s on now on the Cheltenham to south Wales stoppers). Those who always drive will probably be unaware of these changes.


Can I ask, do you live or have to travel through the city daily via the non motorway roads?

Have you tried to use a bus into the city centre?
 

Tom Quinne

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The key difference between water and traffic is that water is isn't compressible. You can drive closer together safely at 50mph than at 70mph, and cars, vans, coaches and HGVs will all be travelling at the same speed.

This actually increases the number of vehicles that can get through per minute.

Variable speed limits attempt to optimise the flow further, though obviously you reach a point where the road is completely overwhelmed and congestion results.

The 50 probably works if everyone is doing 50 throughout the section, but they don’t. They see the 50 boards slam on the breaks to 45, the next car does the same to 40, the next to 35 and so on. Before you know if you’ve traffic at a standstill - more often than not car now 28 in the chain is so engaged in watching their speedo they slam into the back of the car infront.
 

Dai Corner

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The 50 probably works if everyone is doing 50 throughout the section, but they don’t. They see the 50 boards slam on the breaks to 45, the next car does the same to 40, the next to 35 and so on. Before you know if you’ve traffic at a standstill - more often than not car now 28 in the chain is so engaged in watching their speedo they slam into the back of the car infront.

Indeed. Poor driving contributes to the congestion. If only all drivers would learn the correct technique as described by HowardGWR above. I've never seen any driver education from the Welsh Government and I live in Newport.
 

Brissle Girl

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Indeed. Poor driving contributes to the congestion. If only all drivers would learn the correct technique as described by HowardGWR above. I've never seen any driver education from the Welsh Government and I live in Newport.
As I read it they are going to introduce average speed cameras, so there will be much more incentive to stick to a steady 50 than is the case when there are periodic fixed cameras. That may help. They are also going to extend the slip road at the lane drop to try and prevent motorists darting down the left lane and cutting in at the last minute. Though I suspect such motorists will simply cut in before the new start point, so I'm very sceptical about that making any difference. The problem is the Brynglas tunnels are too much of a bottleneck with current volumes.

I am very pro-rail, but expecting a road built in 1967 to have the same effective through capacity today (by virtue of the tunnels) and work is unrealistic. It was full up by the early 1980s when the widening was carried out, but of course that still left the two lane section through the tunnels. To think that any public transport measures can reduce demand enough to take us back 30 years in terms of volumes is a big ask.
 

Envoy

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Can I ask, do you live or have to travel through the city daily via the non motorway roads?

Have you tried to use a bus into the city centre?

I have tried car, bus and City Line train into Cardiff city centre.
 

Tom Quinne

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Have you tried to get to work (Cardiff City Centre) from Newport for 0625 on a Sunday morning using public transport?

Or working a 12hr shift then trying to use public transport home when you don’t live on a PT route?

I’ll stick to my car until they claw it out of my cold dead hands.
 

mmh

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Sitting in North Wales it's amusing to read people wanting cheaper fares in the South to encourage train use. It would be great if our fares were at the same sort of prices as along the South Wales main line!
 

Dai Corner

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Sitting in North Wales it's amusing to read people wanting cheaper fares in the South to encourage train use. It would be great if our fares were at the same sort of prices as along the South Wales main line!

Those of us on the SWML wouldn't mind the same sort of fares they get in the Valleys!
 

mmh

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Those of us on the SWML wouldn't mind the same sort of fares they get in the Valleys!

I suppose the grass is always greener and all that. I just in another thread, I long for the day that TFW lives up to the origin of its name and acts like a PTE and sorts all these inequalities, ticketing, cross-mode coordination and everything else out, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I've started using (or wanting to) the trains more than I have in years recently. Not only are fares an issue, the timetabling is so ridiculous it's like it's been actively designed to discourage train travel.

The parallel with the SWML of course is that rail could in theory help congestion on the A55 just like the M4. There just seems no will to do it. The Welsh Government seems to like the stick but not keen to give any carrots away.
 

Envoy

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Have you tried to get to work (Cardiff City Centre) from Newport for 0625 on a Sunday morning using public transport?

Or working a 12hr shift then trying to use public transport home when you don’t live on a PT route?

I’ll stick to my car until they claw it out of my cold dead hands.

Your journey is exactly why it would be virtually impossible to attract anyone away from car to public transport. All the more reason therefore why although desirable to attract people to public transport, private car travel will always need to be taken into consideration - hence my view that a south of Newport M4 should have been given the go-ahead.
 

Envoy

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I suppose the grass is always greener and all that. I just in another thread, I long for the day that TFW lives up to the origin of its name and acts like a PTE and sorts all these inequalities, ticketing, cross-mode coordination and everything else out, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I've started using (or wanting to) the trains more than I have in years recently. Not only are fares an issue, the timetabling is so ridiculous it's like it's been actively designed to discourage train travel.

The parallel with the SWML of course is that rail could in theory help congestion on the A55 just like the M4. There just seems no will to do it. The Welsh Government seems to like the stick but not keen to give any carrots away.

I agree with you. It seems to me that some ridiculous antiquated fare setting system called ORCATS exists and the so called Rail Delivery Group fails to do anything about it. (They represent the TOC’s as I understand it). Year in year out we have disparities in fares and all this split ticketing nonsense - which drive many people away from the railways and onto the roads. (Or they never have used the trains).
 

Dai Corner

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I agree with you. It seems to me that some ridiculous antiquated fare setting system called ORCATS exists and the so called Rail Delivery Group fails to do anything about it. (They represent the TOC’s as I understand it). Year in year out we have disparities in fares and all this split ticketing nonsense - which drive many people away from the railways and onto the roads. (Or they never have used the trains).

ORCATS is the system by which revenue is divided up between different TOCS where more than one serves a route, such as Newport-Swansea.

The fares are set by TfW.
 

Tom Quinne

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Your journey is exactly why it would be virtually impossible to attract anyone away from car to public transport. All the more reason therefore why although desirable to attract people to public transport, private car travel will always need to be taken into consideration - hence my view that a south of Newport M4 should have been given the go-ahead.

100% agree the M4 relief has to be built sooner or later, kicking the can further down the road does no one, especially the environment any good.
 

Scousemouse

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. Likewise, I do wonder if Airbus to the west have any public transport link with the station or Parkway as it looks a bit far to walk for commuters?

Not anything useful. In a previous life I lived about a mile from highbridge station and had occasion to work at Airbus. Nothing practical in terms of a bus at my end meaning having to park at the station. If you were lucky at the time you might want to use it so that meant leaving earlier than desired.

Assume you can park, then you need to realistically allow an hour for the train to get to Filton.

A 25 minute walk at the other end because there was (probably still is) no feasible bus that connects with the trains.

And you are looking 2 hours door to door.

The drive took 45 minutes.
 

HowardGWR

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Not anything useful. In a previous life I lived about a mile from highbridge station and had occasion to work at Airbus. Nothing practical in terms of a bus at my end meaning having to park at the station. If you were lucky at the time you might want to use it so that meant leaving earlier than desired.

Assume you can park, then you need to realistically allow an hour for the train to get to Filton.

A 25 minute walk at the other end because there was (probably still is) no feasible bus that connects with the trains.

And you are looking 2 hours door to door.

The drive took 45 minutes.
Of course the nearest station in the past would have been North Filton Platform, which, in fairness, is due to be reopened (eventually) under Metro West proposals. The real question is whether there will be any Airbus by then. :(
 

Envoy

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Many thanks ‘Scousemouse’ for your response. What you highlight is that in the desire to get everybody out of their cars, the local Council’s fail to figure out end to end journeys from home to place of work - with costs being another factor that determines the mode of transport that people use. You would think that it would be obvious that a frequent bus would link Filton station directly with Airbus and the nearby Cribb’s Causeway retail area. It is First who run the buses in Bristol and it is of course First who run GWR trains. You would think that they would make every effort to run an integrated service with bus links to their rail stations?

‘HowardGWR’ - Sales of Boeing planes have virtually collapsed which is very good news for Airbus.
 

Brissle Girl

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‘HowardGWR’ - Sales of Boeing planes have virtually collapsed which is very good news for Airbus.

Less so than you might imagine. With an order book of 9,000 outstanding for the A320 neo series and a production capacity of around 700 a year, Airbus has acknowledged it’s in no position to benefit directly from the 737 Max grounding. They are able to increase production by a small number of planes a month, but both they and their supply chain is unable or unwilling to do more, as the risk and costs of having to scale back in a couple of years are seen as too great. To me that sees odd when you have a 9 year order book, but I guess they know the aircraft industry better than I do.

Still, it’s rather amusing that the biggest producer of aircraft in the US at the moment is Airbus!
 

jimm

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Many thanks ‘Scousemouse’ for your response. What you highlight is that in the desire to get everybody out of their cars, the local Council’s fail to figure out end to end journeys from home to place of work - with costs being another factor that determines the mode of transport that people use. You would think that it would be obvious that a frequent bus would link Filton station directly with Airbus and the nearby Cribb’s Causeway retail area. It is First who run the buses in Bristol and it is of course First who run GWR trains. You would think that they would make every effort to run an integrated service with bus links to their rail stations?

‘HowardGWR’ - Sales of Boeing planes have virtually collapsed which is very good news for Airbus.

Councils are told by the government to find sites for lots of new houses but the government is rather less keen on providing money to link those homes with anywhere by means other than roads - or giving the power and money to regions to set and fund transport priorities for themselves.

As for the idea that First Group could integrate bus and rail services, which country have you been living in since 1987, when bus services outside London were deregulated? Thus stuffing up integrated systems such as prevailed on Tyneside linking buses and the Metro.

First would probably get taken to court for anti-competitive practices if they tried it in the current situation - and fear of rival bus operators moving in on their routes would probably mean they wouldn't even contemplate it in the first place.

I think it is generally accepted in South Wales and the Bristol area - and by GWR and TfW - that the Cardiff-Newport-Bristol axis needs looking at but until GWR can free more Turbos from the Thames Valley routes when 769s finally arrive, then any frequency/capacity increases are going to have to wait for a while.
 

al78

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Your journey is exactly why it would be virtually impossible to attract anyone away from car to public transport. All the more reason therefore why although desirable to attract people to public transport, private car travel will always need to be taken into consideration - hence my view that a south of Newport M4 should have been given the go-ahead.

Anyone can cheery pick a journey where the car is the only practical means of transport. The problem with individual anecdotes is they are unlikely to apply to everyone. Is everyone that drives into a city center in the situation where the car is the only way to do the journey? I very much doubt it, and it is those who have a viable alternative public transport option who we should try to stimulate to switch. Ultimately, having everyone drive one car each into a city center is a horribly inefficient use of space.
 

Scousemouse

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The other problem you have trying to get people out of their cars is convenience.

Currently I have a 40 minute dive to and from work - no public transport but even if there was.

Last night I decided to go to the gym on the way home - that is in town B in between my destination and origin
Tonight I want to go to the supermarket - in town C in the opposite direction to B still in roughly the same direction. Even if I went by public transport, I have no intention of struggling with shopping.

Thursday I want to do soomething totally different on the way home.

If I went by public transport I'd either have to take a lot more time doing all those things - which I'm not prepared to do as I have a life and don't want to spend my spare time waiting on transport

Or Id have to go home and then get the car anyway.

Commuting is not just about getting from home to work.
 

Chris M

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As for the idea that First Group could integrate bus and rail services, which country have you been living in since 1987, when bus services outside London were deregulated? Thus stuffing up integrated systems such as prevailed on Tyneside linking buses and the Metro.

First would probably get taken to court for anti-competitive practices if they tried it in the current situation - and fear of rival bus operators moving in on their routes would probably mean they wouldn't even contemplate it in the first place.
Apparently even changing the timetable of the single bus that ran through Yatton such that it connected with trains at Yatton station would have been illegal under competition rules because First happened to be the only company running trains that served the station and the only company running a bus through Yatton. This was shortly after First took over the local routes from Wessex Trains, but I'm not aware that any of the laws have since changed.
I'm very much in favour of criminalising anti-competitive behaviour, but buses and trains should not be competing against each other.
 
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