• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

"Natural" routes that never had a railway

Status
Not open for further replies.

S&CLER

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
785
Location
southport
Looking at old maps of the British rail network, I was struck by how few obvious routes never got built.

My list includes:
Garve to Ullapool (might have had a chance but for the first world war, and would probably have been rather less uneconomic than the Kyle line); Inverness-Fort Augustus

Windermere-Ambleside-Grasmere-Keswick (I believe the National Trust was originally formed to stop this proposal). If it had been built it would have had a good seasonal tourist traffic, and the LNW would probably have used it for its west Cumbrian mineral traffic instead of the Furness route, to keep the traffic on its own system all the way. Ambleside, with Clun and Painswick, was one of the 3 largest places without a station (Dartmouth had a station, but no trains, so it doesn't quite count). Just imagine a long tunnel under Dunmail Rise, followed by a line along the eastern shore of Thirlmere. I don't know whether to be grateful it was never built, or not.

Preston-Lytham direct (which would probably have survived, allowing the Kirkham route to close between Kirkham and Lytham).

Warrington-Knutsford-Macclesfield (authorised but never built)

Chelmsford-Maldon direct (this would probably have survived and been electrified!)

Dorchester-Bridport-Axminster (the LSW's path was blocked by the GW at Dorchester; this would have allowed a useful Southampton-Bournemouth-Exeter service, but Bournemouth hardly existed when the Dorchester lines were first built).

I believe the LSW had ambitions for a line to Newquay from Wadebridge/Padstow.

Abergavenny-Crickhowell-Brecon along the Usk valley.

Can anyone think of any others that might have stood a chance in pre-motoring days?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

341o2

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
1,899
The proposed railway in the Lake District failed because of local opposition, especially from William Wordsworth, who today would be a NIMBY, not wanting tourists in the Lake District, the New Forest likewise saw opposition, hence Lyndhurst has no station and the route between Southampton and Brockenhurst today.
 

davetheguard

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
1,807
I believe a line was planned by the (original) GWR alongside the River Thames to connect up the Henley & Marlow branches & create a through route. There was opposition from boating vested interests and the plan was quietly dropped.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,768
Location
Herts
Watford - Maple Cross - Uxbridge - (Hayes) , various ideas but never constructed. Would be invaluable today.
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
3,834
If, in addition to Inverness - Fort Augustus that you mentioned, the Ballachulish line could have crossed the narrows and continued to Fort William, the connectivity of northern / western Scotland would have been dramatically improved. Following the A82 alongside Loch Linnhe would have been tricky, but probably no worse than other lines that were built.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
ISTR Ullapool was proposed, but it was only a fishing village until the ferry moved in the 60s or 70s.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
3,912
Location
Hope Valley
Whilst most of the examples above relate to fairly rural areas it is interesting to think about the question from a more modern 'integrated', 'network', 'urban distribution' perspective rather than the historic competitive one.

Gaps like Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, Bradford Forster Square to Exchange/Interchange, Manchester Piccadilly to Victoria (not via Castlefield!), Sheffield Midland to Victoria and so on suddenly become more obvious.
 

S&CLER

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
785
Location
southport

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
ISTR Ullapool was proposed, but it was only a fishing village until the ferry moved in the 60s or 70s.
In fact, once the railways reached the West Coast of Scotland, the Stornoway mail steamer always went from the closest railhead. At first that was Oban, later Mallaig, and ultimately Kyle of Lochalsh. The service finally moved to Ullapool to better serve road traffic - but it had been obvious since the 1890s that Ullapool was a better port than Kyle from which to serve Stornoway. The proposals for the Garve to Ullapool line were partly justified on the basis of the Outer Isles mail traffic.

In fact, the various Royal Commissions set up for the purpose thought there were better places than Ullapool for the purpose. A short extension past Ullapool to Ardmair (or thereabouts) was suggested, and a line from Invershin to Lochinver would not only be better for Stornoway but was expected to help development of the Caithness, Rossshire and Cromartyshire. The latter line would no doubt be spectactular if it survived, but would more likely have been a colossal white elephant.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Both the Kirkburton (Midland LNWR) and Clayton West (Lancashire and Yorkshire) branches from Huddersfield were once proposed to extend to Barnsley, though if they'd both been built they'd have probably split a fairly marginal business case. Come Beeching, only one of those and the existing Penistone line would have survived, most likely the Clayton West route as it still served working collieries.
 
Last edited:

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
782
In fact, once the railways reached the West Coast of Scotland, the Stornoway mail steamer always went from the closest railhead. At first that was Oban, later Mallaig, and ultimately Kyle of Lochalsh. The service finally moved to Ullapool to better serve road traffic - but it had been obvious since the 1890s that Ullapool was a better port than Kyle from which to serve Stornoway. The proposals for the Garve to Ullapool line were partly justified on the basis of the Outer Isles mail traffic.

In fact, the various Royal Commissions set up for the purpose thought there were better places than Ullapool for the purpose. A short extension past Ullapool to Ardmair (or thereabouts) was suggested, and a line from Invershin to Lochinver would not only be better for Stornoway but was expected to help development of the Caithness, Rossshire and Cromartyshire. The latter line would no doubt be spectactular if it survived, but would more likely have been a colossal white elephant.
The Stornoway service ran from Mallaig via Kyle of Lochalsh until it was transferred to Ullapool. I travelled on the southbound boat from Kyle to Mallaig in 1972 and thus avoided having to backtrack to Inverness to head south.
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
The Stornoway service ran from Mallaig via Kyle of Lochalsh until it was transferred to Ullapool. I travelled on the southbound boat from Kyle to Mallaig in 1972 and thus avoided having to backtrack to Inverness to head south.
There was a subtle shift, I believe, in the service. Initially the guaranteed connection was at Mallaig, with an intermediate call at Strome Ferry or later Kyle of Lochalsh. In later years Kyle was the guaranteed connection with an extension to Mallaig.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,191
Location
St Albans
Looking at old maps of the British rail network, I was struck by how few obvious routes never got built.

My list includes:
... Chelmsford-Maldon direct (this would probably have survived and been electrified!) ...
This route would have been quite expensive to build in the 1840s mainly owing to the terrain betyween the two ends. There was (and still is ) only one settlement between Chelmsford and Maldon that might have provided custom, - Danbury) but that is atop a hill over 100m higher than surrounding estaurial and flood plain land. In order to avoid that it would involve a wide deviation northwards to avoid the end of the Little Baddow ridge, placing the railway close to the village of Ulting, not exactly a surce of many pasengers.
At that time, Maldon was in competition with Chelmsford for waterbourne goods deliveries, the latter benefitting from thhe newly built Chelmer Navigation canal. If you look at the altitude profile of the Witham to Maldon railway, you can see that it was virtually flat, starting at less than 30m asl falling steadily over 9.2km to about 4m asl., which gives an average gradient of 1:354, - no challenge for any railway, even in the 1840s! That alignment follows the river Blackwater almost to the centre of Witham. A Chelmsford direct route would be at least 60% longer from the mainline than the branch actually built from Witham, and more expensive to operate, so I doubt that it would have lasted much into the 20th century, let alone survived Beechings cuts.
 

jamesr

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
135
Dorchester-Bridport-Axminster (the LSW's path was blocked by the GW at Dorchester; this would have allowed a useful Southampton-Bournemouth-Exeter service, but Bournemouth hardly existed when the Dorchester lines were first built).

This certainly looks like a missing link on paper, but in practice a bridge over the GWR lines in Dorchester would have been the least of the LSW’s problems. I know the Victorians found a way through every hill, but the A35 west of Dorchester to Honiton is basically a sequence of very large hills. Any sensible route west would have been a long way from a straight line. I suspect the lack of any sensible way through is the reason that Dorchester South remained a west facing stub for over 100 years.

A surprising omission to me is that the railways never really developed a continuous London orbital main line for freight purposes as much as anything else, just a few parts that didn’t really link together.
 
Joined
21 Oct 2012
Messages
929
Location
Wilmslow
This certainly looks like a missing link on paper, but in practice a bridge over the GWR lines in Dorchester would have been the least of the LSW’s problems. I know the Victorians found a way through every hill, but the A35 west of Dorchester to Honiton is basically a sequence of very large hills. Any sensible route west would have been a long way from a straight line. I suspect the lack of any sensible way through is the reason that Dorchester South remained a west facing stub for over 100 years.

The Southampton & Dorchester Rly. arrived in Dorchester 10 years earlier than the GWR , and had pretty firm plans to reach Exeter drawn up by their engineer Moorsom. It was a coastal route, broadly following the A3052 (the old A35). The LSWR preferred to reach Exeter via Yeovil, so the S & D approached the GWR, tempted by the prospect of reaching Southampton. I didn't come to pass and the S &D fell into LSWR hands, but it is one of the great 'what ifs' of railway history.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
The Southampton & Dorchester Rly. arrived in Dorchester 10 years earlier than the GWR , and had pretty firm plans to reach Exeter drawn up by their engineer Moorsom. It was a coastal route, broadly following the A3052 (the old A35). The LSWR preferred to reach Exeter via Yeovil, so the S & D approached the GWR, tempted by the prospect of reaching Southampton. I didn't come to pass and the S &D fell into LSWR hands, but it is one of the great 'what ifs' of railway history.

To be pedantic, the various routes proposed generally followed the Winterbourne and Brit valleys thence through Marshwood Vale towards Axminster or even Seaton Jn (as it became). Two tunnels would have been needed (or 3 for the last case)..
 

Grumpy

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2010
Messages
1,064
Gaps like Glasgow Central to Glasgow Queen Street, Bradford Forster Square to Exchange/Interchange, Manchester Piccadilly to Victoria (not via Castlefield!), Sheffield Midland to Victoria and so on suddenly become more obvious.
Couldn't you run Piccadilly to Victoria via the Midland curve?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Both the Kirkburton (Midland) and Clayton West (Lancashire and Yorkshire) branches from Huddersfield were once proposed to extend to Barnsley, though if they'd both been built they'd have probably split a fairly marginal business case. Come Beeching, only one of those and the existing Penistone line would have survived, most likely the Clayton West route as it still served working collieries.
I always assumed, without knowing for certain, that the Clayton West branch was intended to continue a few miles further to join the L&Y line near Darton. This would have provided a link to Barnsley and presumably towards Wakefield as well, and connected the isolated L&Y line linking Huddersfield and Penistone (and its branches) into the rest of its network. As far as I'm aware Kirkburton was LNWR not Midland, the LNWR had no other lines around Barnsley to link into and with four other companies already present there I suspect there wasn't much traffic left for it to mop up.
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,081
To be pedantic, the various routes proposed generally followed the Winterbourne and Brit valleys thence through Marshwood Vale towards Axminster or even Seaton Jn (as it became). Two tunnels would have been needed (or 3 for the last case)..

Whereas going via Yeovil allowed the route to follow the valleys of the Yeo, Parrett and Axe, relatively flat and passing to the north of the Dorset Downs and to the south of the Blackdowns.
Going west from Dorchester would have required some heroic tunnelling through soft chalk
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,575
Bridgnorth - Wolverhampton. Proposed several times with various parliamentary acts from 1860 onwards including the GWR as late as the early 1900s. Some earthworks done and the line south of Bridgnorth is built for double track to accommodate it but was never constructed. Would have been very useful even now (more so than the SVR route north to Shrewsbury) as many Bridgnorth folk work in Wolves and the road between the two quite busy.
 

martinsh

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
1,743
Location
Considering a move to Memphis
How about the following ?

Tulloch - Newtonmore
Derby - Ashbourne - Caldon Low
Stafford - Eccleshall - Market Drayton - Whitchurch
Witney - Burford - Northleach - Andoversford
Fairford - Cirencester
Salisbury - Amesbury - Pewsey
Kingsbridge - Salcombe
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
The lack of a straight line Derby-Ashbourne route is easy to understand by driving that section of the A52 or by looking at a contour map. The indirect route via Uttoxeter follows the valleys with few major works required. A route on to Caldon would have been difficult for the same reason.
 

Calthrop

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2015
Messages
3,296
How about the following ?
Kingsbridge - Salcombe

Well, I remember reading in a model-railway magazine long ago about someone's layout: per his "legend", in that part of Devon; a private railway serving Salcombe, and connecting with the Kingsbridge branch at an intermediate station. Said railway's name: the Loddiswell, Modbury & Salcombe (LMS, geddit?). Might this perhaps do? <D
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
Tulloch - Newtonmore
Jealously guarded by the Highland Railway, of course, who saw it as a potential threat to them. I believe the Highland once proposed building it themselves to block anyone else from building it or the more sensible route from Fort William to Inverness via the Great Glen.

Apparently there was also a shortlived British Rail proposal to build it to allow closure of the Crianlarich-Tulloch section of the West Highland line and provide faster services to Fort William.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Looking at the map, it seems odd to me that the "Woodhead" line went from Woodhead Reservoir to Dunford Bridge (given that this meant a detour via Penistone) rather than the more direct route of a tunnel towards Langsett (and down the Porter/Little Don valley past Stocksbridge).

It may be just about the shortest tunnel or maybe the reservoirs around Langsett/ Midhope meant it'd be too hard to path a line, or maybe the steel works at Stocksbridge meant no space for a separate main line to run through the narrow valley)… but Penistone isn't a big place, so diverting that way (to follow a different valley as far as Deepcar) has always seemed a little surprising to me.

Can't think of any other examples round here - the geography means that any routes would be restricted to the paths of the valleys, which obviously limits things.
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
It may be just about the shortest tunnel or maybe the reservoirs around Langsett/ Midhope meant it'd be too hard to path a line, or maybe the steel works at Stocksbridge meant no space for a separate main line to run through the narrow valley)… but Penistone isn't a big place, so diverting that way (to follow a different valley as far as Deepcar) has always seemed a little surprising to me.
Construction of the Langsett Reservoir seems to have involved a railway, so it wasn't totally impossible to thread one around the steelworks. The line of the railway was certainly above the Underbank reservoir; getting past Langsett reservoir would have been trickier, but the railway would probably have got there first.

The real challenge for the idea is the length of the tunnel needed. With the west portal close to that actually constructed, the east portal would need to be somewhere in the vicinity of Swinden, making for a 4.7 mile tunnel - something like 50% longer than the Woodhead-Stanhope tunnel, and getting on for half a mile longer than the Severn tunnel.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
Construction of the Langsett Reservoir seems to have involved a railway, so it wasn't totally impossible to thread one around the steelworks. The line of the railway was certainly above the Underbank reservoir; getting past Langsett reservoir would have been trickier, but the railway would probably have got there first.

The real challenge for the idea is the length of the tunnel needed. With the west portal close to that actually constructed, the east portal would need to be somewhere in the vicinity of Swinden, making for a 4.7 mile tunnel - something like 50% longer than the Woodhead-Stanhope tunnel, and getting on for half a mile longer than the Severn tunnel.
Also worth remembering that a lot of the reason for the Great Central was coal haulage across the Pennines, for which the connections to the Barnsley area and Wath yard were more important than the one to Sheffield. Continuing a Langsett Valley route towards Wath would have hit some very hilly terrain between Deepcar and Tankersley, probably requiring another long tunnel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top