Thameslink timetable improvements

MML · 9 Feb 2020

The current timetable has no trains from London to Bedford from 0101 to 0618 on a Sunday.
While a 24 hour service does operate Monday to Saturday, the lack of any trains early on a Sunday does mean it can be difficult for night revellers to return from a Saturday night out in London and equally makes travelling to/from London Luton Airport impossible for late night or early morning departures on a Sunday.

Is there any intention to introduce a true 24h/7 days a week service linking London and stations along the MML with Luton Airport ?
A typical timetable utilising 4 units/drivers would permit an hourly all stations service to Bedford and an hourly all stations service to Luton each departing St Pancras at 30 minute intervals (albeit with an hour interval between 0230 and 0330).

Overnight track maintenance work may prohibit use of platforms A and B for cross London transfer some of the year, but it should be possible to utilise high-level platforms 1-4 at St Pancras instead or indeed on occasions terminate services at Kentish Town where interchange is possible with Northern line night-tube services.
With MML being 4 track, it should be possible to operate this limited overnight service even if 2 of the tracks are closed for maintenance possession.

STP LUT BDM BDM LUT STP
01:00 01:50 02:20 02:30 03:00 03:50 Unit 1
01:30 02:20 02:30 03:20 Unit 2
02:00 02:50 03:20 03:30 04:00 04:50 Unit 3
02:30 03:20 03:30 04:20 Unit 4

03:30 04:20 04:30 05:20 Unit 2
04:00 04:50 05:20 05:30 05:00 06:50 Unit 1
04:30 05:20 05:30 06:20 Unit 4
05:00 05:50 06:20 06:30 07:00 07:50 Unit 3

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Aictos · 9 Feb 2020

MML said:
The current timetable has no trains from London to Bedford from 0101 to 0618 on a Sunday.
While a 24 hour service does operate Monday to Saturday, the lack of any trains early on a Sunday does mean it can be difficult for night revellers to return from a Saturday night out in London and equally makes travelling to/from London Luton Airport impossible for late night or early morning departures on a Sunday.

Is there any intention to introduce a true 24h/7 days a week service linking London and stations along the MML with Luton Airport ?
A typical timetable utilising 4 units/drivers would permit an hourly all stations service to Bedford and an hourly all stations service to Luton each departing St Pancras at 30 minute intervals (albeit with an hour interval between 0230 and 0330).

Overnight track maintenance work may prohibit use of platforms A and B for cross London transfer some of the year, but it should be possible to utilise high-level platforms 1-4 at St Pancras instead or indeed on occasions terminate services at Kentish Town where interchange is possible with Northern line night-tube services.
With MML being 4 track, it should be possible to operate this limited overnight service even if 2 of the tracks are closed for maintenance possession.

STP LUT BDM BDM LUT STP
01:00 01:50 02:20 02:30 03:00 03:50 Unit 1
01:30 02:20 02:30 03:20 Unit 2
02:00 02:50 03:20 03:30 04:00 04:50 Unit 3
02:30 03:20 03:30 04:20 Unit 4

03:30 04:20 04:30 05:20 Unit 2
04:00 04:50 05:20 05:30 05:00 06:50 Unit 1
04:30 05:20 05:30 06:20 Unit 4
05:00 05:50 06:20 06:30 07:00 07:50 Unit 3

Can you explain the timings better please as I can't understand them.

Pumbaa · 9 Feb 2020

Simply put, no. The entire 4 tracks are blocked overnight for maintenance, and then 2 come off to allow the Sunday morning service. All back in use by midday Sunday. Not dissimilar to other mainline routes.

If you want Saturday night access, you’ll have to give up access elsewhere to allow it to happen.

MML · 9 Feb 2020

But I guess that's a no then. Can't be done with all 4 tracks closed.

Bald Rick · 9 Feb 2020

No plans. As @Pumbaa says, it is the one opportunity a week for an all line block to enable such things as headspan inspection and repair, signalling system checks, power system checks, etc etc.

It is also the time used for all Thameslink core maintenance, including patrolling and defect removal. To be honest it’s not really long enough, in my opinion.

Besides, Luton airport doesn’t have any ‘late’ departures on a Saturday night. Typically it has only three after 2000, with the last at about 2230; so well within the train service operating hours. (Unless you are catching a private jet, or the DHL freighter, in which case you’d make separate arrangements!)

There’s very few late Saturday arrivals either; almost all are in by 2300, plenty of time to get the last London train.

The issue is early departures on Sunday morning, ie the first wave of Easyjet and WizzUK departures from 0600-0800. However speaking from personal experience, some very recently, the number of people who catch the train for the very early flights is pretty small when the trains are running on Mondays - Saturdays. The last few trips I’ve done at that time (for 0600ish flights) have seen an average of around 15 people per bus on the 10 minute interval airport link.

Even then, the last train from London on a Sunday morning before closedown is 0143. Plenty late enough for most revellers, and also doable for people catching flights the next morning. That train gets you to the airport station 0230, the airport just before 0300, and Wizz check in opens 0330, Easyjet 0400. I know a number of people who have done that.

MML · 18 Feb 2020

I'm on yet another 8 car unit which is operating Brighton to Bedford and will no doubt be rammed leaving London during the peak. When can we expect a follow on order to ensure sufficient core services between Bedford and Brighton are all operated by 12 car units ? And sufficient stabling is provided ?
Siemens will stop manufacturing the model before long and then we'll never maximise route capacity.

And why is the platform at Blackfriars only utilised by a half-hour interval service to Sevenoaks ? I would have thought platform capacity at a London terminus would be at a premium during rush hour.

Horizon22 · 18 Feb 2020

MML said:
I'm on yet another 8 car unit which is operating Brighton to Bedford and will no doubt be rammed leaving London during the peak. When can we expect a follow on order to ensure sufficient core services between Bedford and Brighton are all operated by 12 car units ? And sufficient stabling is provided ?
Siemens will stop manufacturing the model before long and then we'll never maximise route capacity.

And why is the platform at Blackfriars only utilised by a half-hour interval service to Sevenoaks ? I would have thought platform capacity at a London terminus would be at a premium during rush hour.

SE extras in the rush hour from 3&4 at Blackfriars

MML · 18 Feb 2020

SE appear to depart from platform 4, but Thameslink service to Sevenoaks depart from platform 3. But there is only one train every half hour. You'd think Sevenoaks would have a 15 minute interval service during the peak.

Kite159 · 18 Feb 2020

MML said:
SE appear to depart from platform 4, but Thameslink service to Sevenoaks depart from platform 3. But there is only one train every half hour. You'd think Sevenoaks would have a 15 minute interval service during the peak.

I'm sure in the past there has been 4tph around the Bat & Ball loop to call at all the stations (Shoreham etc). Maybe in the days of

(*breaking out the crayons*

For the peaks divert the 2tph to Orpington to Sevenoaks (via Bat & Ball) and extend the 2tph SE services which terminate at Bromley South to Orpington to maintain 4tph Bickley to Petts Wood)

Aictos · 18 Feb 2020

MML said:
SE appear to depart from platform 4, but Thameslink service to Sevenoaks depart from platform 3. But there is only one train every half hour. You'd think Sevenoaks would have a 15 minute interval service during the peak.

Why is 10tph not enough for Sevenoaks passengers to get to London?

The majority of the services serve Cannon Street or Charing Cross and as the Blackfriars services are peak extras, the frequency is more then enough.

30907 · 18 Feb 2020

Kite159 said:
I'm sure in the past there has been 4tph around the Bat & Ball loop to call at all the stations (Shoreham etc). of
....
For the peaks divert the 2tph to Orpington to Sevenoaks (via Bat & Ball) and extend the 2tph SE services which terminate at Bromley South to Orpington to maintain 4tph Bickley to Petts Wood)

The Sevenoaks service in the peaks has never been more than 3tph beyond Bellingham or Shortlands/Bromley S. Before the present pattern was introduced the evening peak on the Catford Loop was only half hourly, so I imagine the present service is an improvement. Things have changed massively since I commuted from SRT in the 60s/70s.
Extending the Bromley S terminators to Orpington would be a welcome move locally AIUI though it isn't really justified by loadings IME.

Aictos said:
Why is 10tph not enough for Sevenoaks passengers to get to London?
The majority of the services serve Cannon Street or Charing Cross and as the Blackfriars services are peak extras, the frequency is more then enough.

The Blackfriars services are not peak extras (they've run all day since Sevenoaks was electrified well over 80 years ago) and obviously don't run primarily for Sevenoaks-London passengers.

Kite159 · 18 Feb 2020

Aictos said:
Why is 10tph not enough for Sevenoaks passengers to get to London?

The majority of the services serve Cannon Street or Charing Cross and as the Blackfriars services are peak extras, the frequency is more then enough.

It's more for the passengers for Eynsford, Shoreham & Bat and Ball. Any passengers for Sevenoaks itself won't be using the Thameslink service to travel to central London as they are stoppers, like how any passengers for Central London will tend to ignore the South Eastern stoppers

Bald Rick · 18 Feb 2020

MML said:
I'm on yet another 8 car unit which is operating Brighton to Bedford and will no doubt be rammed leaving London during the peak.

When you say ‘yet another’, I’d be interested to know how many times you have experienced an 8 car on a service planned for 12. It happened to me for the first time in months this morning.

MML · 19 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
When you say ‘yet another’, I’d be interested to know how many times you have experienced an 8 car on a service planned for 12. It happened to me for the first time in months this morning.

4th time and all due to unplanned service disruption. There are other planned 8 car services which I make a specific choice to avoid since they become more crowded than those operated by 12 car units.
I would suggest Thameslink have 6 units which should be 12 car rather than 8 and I was wondering whether Thameslink are intending to remedy the situation.
Don't get me started on the retrofit of seatback tables which was promised but not delivered.

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
When you say ‘yet another’, I’d be interested to know how many times you have experienced an 8 car on a service planned for 12. It happened to me for the first time in months this morning.

On the GN side we of course have an 8-car diagram on the Cambridge to Brighton service, which just happens to hit the peak flow going into and coming out of London. So peak passengers don’t need unplanned short forms, turn up at a particular time and it will be an 8-car 100% of the time!

It doesn’t seem uncommon for 8-cars to turn up at weekends during altered working, either planned or otherwise, on what are theoretically 12-car routes.

Bald Rick · 19 Feb 2020

MML said:
4th time and all due to unplanned service disruption. There are other planned 8 car services which I make a specific choice to avoid since they become more crowded than those operated by 12 car units.
I would suggest Thameslink have 6 units which should be 12 car rather than 8 and I was wondering whether Thameslink are intending to remedy the situation.
Don't get me started on the retrofit of seatback tables which was promised but not delivered.

Ok. 4 times in 3 years of service is a much lower rate of short forms than in the 319 / 377 days.

To answer the question - Thameslink have no plans for extending the trains but that’s because the Government have no plans.

43074 · 19 Feb 2020

Kite159 said:
It's more for the passengers for Eynsford, Shoreham & Bat and Ball. Any passengers for Sevenoaks itself won't be using the Thameslink service to travel to central London as they are stoppers, like how any passengers for Central London will tend to ignore the South Eastern stoppers

Equally Eynsford, Shoreham and Bat & Ball are not the centre of the universe to be frank, I'm not sure they justify 4tph in the first place.

Aictos · 19 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
When you say ‘yet another’, I’d be interested to know how many times you have experienced an 8 car on a service planned for 12. It happened to me for the first time in months this morning.

Indeed, in over a year of using the network I’ve only had a short form happen once which by a strange confidence was yesterday as it’s booked a 12 car but for whatever reason a 8 car turned up.

43074 said:
Equally Eynsford, Shoreham and Bat & Ball are not the centre of the universe to be frank, I'm not sure they justify 4tph in the first place.

If they did justify 4tph then those services would be already running.

As to increasing the number of services from Sevenoaks to Blackfriars, which existing services would need to be removed to make room for the proposed services?

There’s plenty of services that people can use to get to London, no need for even more services which gives other passengers a worse service as a result of their services being cut to make room.

Horizon22 · 19 Feb 2020

Very much doubt there's capacity between Shortlands & Bickley (or Catford loop) for an increase in additional TL services. Indeed the curtailing of 2tph of Victoria - Orpington stoppers at Bromley South was to make room for the additional TL services.

Aictos · 19 Feb 2020

Horizon22 said:
Very much doubt there's capacity between Shortlands & Bickley (or Catford loop) for an increase in additional TL services. Indeed the curtailing of 2tph of Victoria - Orpington stoppers at Bromley South was to make room for the additional TL services.

My point exactly about how existing services would have to be cut to provide capacity for any more additional services ie it’s not a good idea.

SE%Traveller · 20 Feb 2020

MML said:
I'm on yet another 8 car unit which is operating Brighton to Bedford and will no doubt be rammed leaving London during the peak. When can we expect a follow on order to ensure sufficient core services between Bedford and Brighton are all operated by 12 car units ? And sufficient stabling is provided ?
Siemens will stop manufacturing the model before long and then we'll never maximise route capacity.

And why is the platform at Blackfriars only utilised by a half-hour interval service to Sevenoaks ? I would have thought platform capacity at a London terminus would be at a premium during rush hour.

The Sevenoaks Services are supposed to only use the bays at Blackfriars off peak, during the peaks they're supposed to go through the core to Welwyn. There doesn't appear to be any firm date on when they intend to implement that (it was supposed to be May 2019) so any additional services in the peaks (specifically the proposed southern London Bridge>Sutton>Wimbledon>Blackfriars service) are on hold until they do.

Bald Rick · 20 Feb 2020

SE%Traveller said:
The Sevenoaks Services are supposed to only use the bays at Blackfriars off peak, during the peaks they're supposed to go through the core to Welwyn. There doesn't appear to be any firm date on when they intend to implement that (it was supposed to be May 2019) so any additional services in the peaks (specifically the proposed southern London Bridge>Sutton>Wimbledon>Blackfriars service) are on hold until they do.

AIUI December for Sevenoaks - Welwyn. As reported on another thread somewhere!

bramling · 20 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
AIUI December for Sevenoaks - Welwyn. As reported on another thread somewhere!

Will you be laying money on it, or Cambridge to Maidstone this decade for that matter?

Bald Rick · 20 Feb 2020

bramling said:
Will you be laying money on it, or Cambridge to Maidstone this decade for that matter?

If there was a book running on such things, I’d bet my mortgage on Welwyn - Sevenoaks for December.

SE%Traveller · 21 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
If there was a book running on such things, I’d bet my mortgage on Welwyn - Sevenoaks for December.

Good to know! any idea on when Orpington Kentish Town weekend services are to start? they're another thing quietly dropped it would seem

Aictos · 21 Feb 2020

Well this Sunday has the unusual luxury of Luton to Rainhams bearing in mind Sunday’s usually only have Luton’s to Sutton via Wimbledon so is it not possible in the future sometime to have a 7 day service between Luton and Rainham?

westcoaster · 21 Feb 2020

Aictos said:
Well this Sunday has the unusual luxury of Luton to Rainhams bearing in mind Sunday’s usually only have Luton’s to Sutton via Wimbledon so is it not possible in the future sometime to have a 7 day service between Luton and Rainham?

Engineering works at Herne Hill so no sutton services running, so move the rainham service to luton to compensate.

Verulamius · 21 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
If there was a book running on such things, I’d bet my mortgage on Welwyn - Sevenoaks for December.

So the ATO is working well with drivers being trained?

jon0844 · 21 Feb 2020

Verulamius said:
So the ATO is working well with drivers being trained?

I believe so. Off peak during the day, chances are the you've been on has been ATO.

Aictos · 21 Feb 2020

westcoaster said:
Engineering works at Herne Hill so no sutton services running, so move the rainham service to luton to compensate.

Ahh okay, just never heard of the Rainhams on a Sunday at Luton before.

Thameslink timetable improvements

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