National Express East Coast Catering

Kurolus Rex · 14 Feb 2020

What was catering like on NXEC and also EC before the conplimentary first class service was introduced?

I understand that NXEC significantly reduced the number of restaurant services, but what was the quality of food like?

I also read that, on non-reataurant services, NXEC introduced an at seat service whereby both first and standard class passengers could order from the same menu for a price which intrigued me.

If anybody could shed some light on this i would be very grateful!

RailUK Forums

gaillark · 16 Feb 2020

NXEC started with retaining all of GNER's full restaurant service. This changed on 05 January 2009 when they introduced At seat dining. The good thing about this was that it was available 7 days a week on selected services. The traditional restaurant car got slashed to peak hours only with only I think 16 trains having it. National Express produced a glossy brochure intoducing the new service as Come Dine With Us.
It promised high quality gastro pub range of food being rustic in style. Seasonal winter options such as partridge, guinea fowl. The idea was to follow the seasons with warmer heavier meals in the autumn and the current range will never be repeated.

Sadly National Express promised much but delivered slash and burn and lower budget quality.
Partridge and guinea fowl as far as I recall as a customer did not materlise. However it did offer:

Premium gourmet burger £10.50
Chicken salad £9.99
Pasta £8.99
Fish pie £12.99
Sausage casserole £12.99
Steak sandwich £10.50
Crayfish risotto £11.50
Italian Brunch £10.50
Desserts were £4.50/cheese £5.50

They also had breakfast before 11 am. Toast was £2 a slice with the tradtional grill breakfast a further £13. The portion sizes were much reduced.

When national express handed back the keys East Coast retained the set up.
July 2010:
Burger £10
Pasta £9
Chicken tikka £10
Salmon salad £9
Fish and Chips £10. (Very nice indeed with freshly fried chips)
Sausage and mash £10.

Whilst national express had good itentions with what they proposed it never materialised. The economic climate at the time probably put a curtains on high quality. The company set about slashing and burning every thing adopting a budget offer. Even tea and coffee rounds were reduced and their sister operation at East Anglia which won numerous awards for its high quality restaurant car operation which was very well used and great prices was closed down . The company citing that fewer than 1% of passengers used the restaurant. Obviously it couldn't be anymore as there were only 24 seats.

It was good to see full catering on handful of weekend services but that is history now.

NXEC introduced the concept of at seat dining but it still lacks quality today under LNER compared to the full silver service. Breakfast on LNER is still great although heavily portion controlled.

Kurolus Rex · 17 Feb 2020

gaillark said:
NXEC started with retaining all of GNER's full restaurant service. This changed on 05 January 2009 when they introduced At seat dining. The good thing about this was that it was available 7 days a week on selected services. The traditional restaurant car got slashed to peak hours only with only I think 16 trains having it. National Express produced a glossy brochure intoducing the new service as Come Dine With Us.
It promised high quality gastro pub range of food being rustic in style. Seasonal winter options such as partridge, guinea fowl. The idea was to follow the seasons with warmer heavier meals in the autumn and the current range will never be repeated.

Sadly National Express promised much but delivered slash and burn and lower budget quality.
Partridge and guinea fowl as far as I recall as a customer did not materlise. However it did offer:

Premium gourmet burger £10.50

Chicken salad £9.99

Pasta £8.99

Fish pie £12.99

Sausage casserole £12.99

Steak sandwich £10.50

Crayfish risotto £11.50

Italian Brunch £10.50

Desserts were £4.50/cheese £5.50

They also had breakfast before 11 am. Toast was £2 a slice with the tradtional grill breakfast a further £13. The portion sizes were much reduced.

When national express handed back the keys East Coast retained the set up.
July 2010:
Burger £10
Pasta £9
Chicken tikka £10
Salmon salad £9
Fish and Chips £10. (Very nice indeed with freshly fried chips)
Sausage and mash £10.

Whilst national express had good itentions with what they proposed it never materialised. The economic climate at the time probably put a curtains on high quality. The company set about slashing and burning every thing adopting a budget offer. Even tea and coffee rounds were reduced and their sister operation at East Anglia which won numerous awards for its high quality restaurant car operation which was very well used and great prices was closed down . The company citing that fewer than 1% of passengers used the restaurant. Obviously it couldn't be anymore as there were only 24 seats.

It was good to see full catering on handful of weekend services but that is history now.

NXEC introduced the concept of at seat dining but it still lacks quality today under LNER compared to the full silver service. Breakfast on LNER is still great although heavily portion controlled.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

Was the at seat dining option also available in standard? I read somewhere in another thread that standard class passengers could order from the same menu as first class passengers and eat it "takeaway style". Is this true?

Bletchleyite · 17 Feb 2020

How did they do the chips? Surely a chip pan or deep fat fryer is not a safe thing to have on a moving train?

RLBH · 17 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
How did they do the chips? Surely a chip pan or deep fat fryer is not a safe thing to have on a moving train?

It can be done on a ship at sea - there are special gimballed deep fat fryers for the job. Putting one on a train might be a bit space-consuming though.

WesternLancer · 17 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
What was catering like on NXEC and also EC before the conplimentary first class service was introduced?

I understand that NXEC significantly reduced the number of restaurant services, but what was the quality of food like?

I also read that, on non-reataurant services, NXEC introduced an at seat service whereby both first and standard class passengers could order from the same menu for a price which intrigued me.

If anybody could shed some light on this i would be very grateful!

Bottom line was it was loads better - with a lot more food in the restaurant car for your money, and proper chef quality.

I made a journey specifically to make the best of it before it changed over.

This MSM article gives good sense of it:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/22/dining-car-axed-by-east-coast-last-journey-tim-adams

Think closer to GW Pullman dining

HOWEVER, I did often find the staff (and this was also true in GNER days) were occasionally less than over enthusiastic about welcoming Std Class ticket holders in, though would always do so if one pleaded ones case (hunger in mine!). This was esp true when getting on at Grantham on a southbound run and clearly the crew had gone into clear up mode and didn't really want to serve up another breakfast. I recall on occasion producing the printed timteble with the relevant shading in it to state that it clearly said dining car food was offered from said location....

Gaillark's detailed response of course adds much in terms of the specifics, but hope my post adds a bit of 'flavour'.

gaillark · 17 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
Thanks for the detailed reply!

Was the at seat dining option also available in standard? I read somewhere in another thread that standard class passengers could order from the same menu as first class passengers and eat it "takeaway style". Is this true?

I'm not 100% sure about whether standard class could order same items and take it away but At seat dining was definitely first class only.
Yes we did have fried chips. I can assure you that you could 'smell the odour of cooking fat' within the carriage. It was very popular. You could even order a separate side portion for £2.50.

I'm sure that the chef was very careful with hot oil sloshing about at speeds of upto 125mph but in more recent times when First Great Western had the travelling chef service, chips freshly fried was also available. On GW, passengers in standard class could order exactly the same items as in first class and take it back to their seats. I think they got a cardboard box whereas in first it was served on a China plate at seat.

I do have a menu card when East Coast operated the at seat dining and will post a photo when I find it.

gaillark · 17 Feb 2020

WesternLancer said:
Bottom line was it was loads better - with a lot more food in the restaurant car for your money, and proper chef quality.

I made a journey specifically to make the best of it before it changed over.

This MSM article gives good sense of it:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/22/dining-car-axed-by-east-coast-last-journey-tim-adams

Think closer to GW Pullman dining

HOWEVER, I did often find the staff (and this was also true in GNER days) were occasionally less than over enthusiastic about welcoming Std Class ticket holders in, though would always do so if one pleaded ones case (hunger in mine!). This was esp true when getting on at Grantham on a southbound run and clearly the crew had gone into clear up mode and didn't really want to serve up another breakfast. I recall on occasion producing the printed timteble with the relevant shading in it to state that it clearly said dining car food was offered from said location....

Gaillark's detailed response of course adds much in terms of the specifics, but hope my post adds a bit of 'flavour'.

Yes that was true. I even had issues from Doncaster on trains that originated from Newcastle or Edinburgh in the evenings travelling to the Cross so I can fully understand difficulties being encountered upon boarding at Grantham.
I always felt that on the ecml crews always wanted to rush service and for it to be over and done with well before Peterborough which was about an hour away still from the end of the line. In my experiences crews had their coats on, all cashed up, buffet closed ready to leave the train always before passing Stevenage,

WesternLancer · 18 Feb 2020

gaillark said:
Yes that was true. I even had issues from Doncaster on trains that originated from Newcastle or Edinburgh in the evenings travelling to the Cross so I can fully understand difficulties being encountered upon boarding at Grantham.
I always felt that on the ecml crews always wanted to rush service and for it to be over and done with well before Peterborough which was about an hour away still from the end of the line. In my experiences crews had their coats on, all cashed up, buffet closed ready to leave the train always before passing Stevenage,

Yes, that very much rings true. Going north I can understand crews being reluctant to let space to std class immediately leaving the Cross, but a good crew would happily do that. More than one occasion I enjoyed three courses before Grantham. Once handing my tea cup back to the steward as I stepped off onto the platform, cash payment left on table! That was in GNER days, Crews varied of course, but overall it was a v high quality option. The idea that the current 'free' offer is really worth having is frankly laughable in comparison in my view!

Journeyman · 18 Feb 2020

I only used the at-seat, paid-for first class offer on NXEC once, but had two meals on the up Chieftain from Inverness to London, breakfast and lunch. Both very good, as far as I can remember.

I quite like the free offer, but I do find that LNER tend to be extremely mean on the portions these days, and although the breakfast is good, all other meals are only really snacks, and not very good. I'd love to have a choice of paid-for, more substantial dishes back.

gaillark · 18 Feb 2020

Thank you to all who have posted here.
In summary it can be deduced from all the contributors so far that the paid for meals provided by the restaurant car were far superior in quality and service than what is offered currently. We are also in agreement that the portion sizes (and choices of food) have been cut down under the complimentary offer.

I blame Branson for this craze as he started this on our railways in trying to replicate the railway as an airline and at the sametime introducing massive ticket price hikes every year (as first class is an unregulated fare by the DfT) and packaging it as an enhanced offer as complimentary to the punter and at the sametime curtailed any standard class passengers from dining unless they upgraded to first class.
GNER was the ultimate in restaurant dining experience with glassware etched with the coat of arms of the company.

I would rather go back to the paid for meal and at the sametime reduce first class walk on fares significantly.
Today, true dining experience is found on a handful of GWR's Pullman dining service although those IET/azuma trains have significantly downgraded the ambience compared to the HST and on the 1716 Cardiff to Holyhead service which is excellent.

Journeyman · 19 Feb 2020

gaillark said:
Thank you to all who have posted here.
In summary it can be deduced from all the contributors so far that the paid for meals provided by the restaurant car were far superior in quality and service than what is offered currently. We are also in agreement that the portion sizes (and choices of food) have been cut down under the complimentary offer.

Whilst there's some truth in this, I think it needs to be recognised that eating habits have changed enormously since restaurant cars were commonplace, and many train catering alterations have been fuelled by socio-economic trends, such as a desire to eat more healthily, and the much wider availability of good quality food at or near stations.

gaillark said:
I blame Branson for this craze as he started this on our railways in trying to replicate the railway as an airline and at the sametime introducing massive ticket price hikes every year (as first class is an unregulated fare by the DfT) and packaging it as an enhanced offer as complimentary to the punter and at the sametime curtailed any standard class passengers from dining unless they upgraded to first class.

At the time it was done, though, I think it was a sensible decision based on where the market was. Remember this was about twenty years ago, when the overwhelming majority of first class travellers were business users on full-price tickets. While I agree they've gone up to a level that makes them almost completely unaffordable to travellers without expense accounts, First Class Advances now exist which I use regularly, because they're pretty cheap. Changes since the economic crash ten years ago have also seen companies get much meaner on who they allow to use First Class, so it's now much more of a leisure product than it was before. It was interesting to see that Avanti West Coast are planning a seat-only first class product at a lower price, in a similar vein to Eurostar. I'd like this, and will happily pay for it. It might also see the quality of meals go up, as they'd serve less of them and would need something to make the full-price first class product worth the money.

RLBH · 19 Feb 2020

Journeyman said:
At the time it was done, though, I think it was a sensible decision based on where the market was.

It's also worth bearing in mind that when complimentary catering was introduced in First Class, trains weren't nearly as full as they are today, so the offer of extra space and near-certainty of a seat without a reservation probably wasn't the draw it now is. To get passengers to pay a premium of 50% (or more), they want to see some benefit for it - and a 'free' meal is quite attractive.

Journeyman · 19 Feb 2020

RLBH said:
It's also worth bearing in mind that when complimentary catering was introduced in First Class, trains weren't nearly as full as they are today, so the offer of extra space and near-certainty of a seat without a reservation probably wasn't the draw it now is. To get passengers to pay a premium of 50% (or more), they want to see some benefit for it - and a 'free' meal is quite attractive.

This is true - twenty years ago, I was happier to travel in Standard than I am now, because trains have got so much busier, and I only ever used First Class at weekends when it was available for a small supplement.

Now, Standard on many trains is uncomfortably crowded, and the extra space in First is enough of a draw in itself. The free food and drink is a very minor perk, and if it was withdrawn, I don't think I'd miss it much.

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

gaillark said:
Thank you to all who have posted here.
In summary it can be deduced from all the contributors so far that the paid for meals provided by the restaurant car were far superior in quality and service than what is offered currently. We are also in agreement that the portion sizes (and choices of food) have been cut down under the complimentary offer.

I blame Branson for this craze as he started this on our railways in trying to replicate the railway as an airline and at the sametime introducing massive ticket price hikes every year (as first class is an unregulated fare by the DfT) and packaging it as an enhanced offer as complimentary to the punter and at the sametime curtailed any standard class passengers from dining unless they upgraded to first class.
GNER was the ultimate in restaurant dining experience with glassware etched with the coat of arms of the company.

I would rather go back to the paid for meal and at the sametime reduce first class walk on fares significantly.
Today, true dining experience is found on a handful of GWR's Pullman dining service although those IET/azuma trains have significantly downgraded the ambience compared to the HST and on the 1716 Cardiff to Holyhead service which is excellent.

I pretty much share this analysis.

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

Journeyman said:
Whilst there's some truth in this, I think it needs to be recognised that eating habits have changed enormously since restaurant cars were commonplace, and many train catering alterations have been fuelled by socio-economic trends, such as a desire to eat more healthily, and the much wider availability of good quality food at or near stations.

At the time it was done, though, I think it was a sensible decision based on where the market was. Remember this was about twenty years ago, when the overwhelming majority of first class travellers were business users on full-price tickets. While I agree they've gone up to a level that makes them almost completely unaffordable to travellers without expense accounts, First Class Advances now exist which I use regularly, because they're pretty cheap. Changes since the economic crash ten years ago have also seen companies get much meaner on who they allow to use First Class, so it's now much more of a leisure product than it was before. It was interesting to see that Avanti West Coast are planning a seat-only first class product at a lower price, in a similar vein to Eurostar. I'd like this, and will happily pay for it. It might also see the quality of meals go up, as they'd serve less of them and would need something to make the full-price first class product worth the money.

These are very good observations - though of course the ability to pay for your meal if you want it strikes me as a more sensible option for the cost conscious traveler who still wants the ambience of first class. Assuming of course there are enough people on board who do want to pay for the meal such that it at least covers the cost of providing it.

What I think is a strange thing is that a meal on the train is not 'valued' as the equivalent of a meal in a restaurant, even if the quality matches it (eg FGW Pullman dining).

I probably eat out twice a week on average (not on expenses!) and that will range from pub grub, to pizza express type of chain to fancy £50 a head restaurant meals. Obv not everyone does this, but I would class the GNER / Pullman type product as equiv to the upper end of that without any problem (and compared with some restaurants I've paid a fair few quid to eat in, way better!), and be prepared to pay accordingly (expect to pay accordingly in fact) - but I don't think a lot of people think like that.

Compare that with the free food offer - if asked to pay for that directly I would never choose it again unless desperately hungry (an equivalent on the high street would mean I'd just go elsewhere and pay more).

I do think the EMR (ex EMT) offer is a good one in terms of modest priced choice of meals (but not chef cooked obv) - tho I suspect they will go over to some sort of free option when they go to 800 bi modes in due course. However, it's notable that since they made their cooked breakfast 'free' in 1st the quality / quantity and product choice has (predictably) declined over time, as compared with when you could buy the offer with an upgraded ticket ahead of travel or on the day if space available.

Journeyman · 19 Feb 2020

It's hard to tell what level LNER's free offer is pitched at - the food itself is perfectly acceptable, there's just far too little of it.

I think a paid-for at-seat offer needs to be pitched properly to succeed, and there's a lot of issues there. Personally I think a mid-level, casual dining sort of price/quality point would be acceptable, with maybe a couple of premium dishes at a higher price.

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

Journeyman said:
It's hard to tell what level LNER's free offer is pitched at - the food itself is perfectly acceptable, there's just far too little of it.

I think a paid-for at-seat offer needs to be pitched properly to succeed, and there's a lot of issues there. Personally I think a mid-level, casual dining sort of price/quality point would be acceptable, with maybe a couple of premium dishes at a higher price.

very good point.

Tho not sure those danish pastry breakfast things would quality for this : "the food itself is perfectly acceptable"....but I realise this can be subjective! :'(

ainsworth74 · 19 Feb 2020

I wonder if this is the moment to mention my thread on this subject where I postulated that in GB restaurant cars went extinct (almost) in part at least due to targeting the wrong segment of the market in comparison to the continent where they continue to be fairly prevalent?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...because-of-targeting-the-wrong-market.192747/

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I wonder if this is the moment to mention my thread on this subject where I postulated that in GB restaurant cars went extinct (almost) in part at least due to targeting the wrong segment of the market in comparison to the continent where they continue to be fairly prevalent?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...because-of-targeting-the-wrong-market.192747/

Great thread - worth it just to click though to this and recall some great meals I enjoyed at the time!
http://www.goeat.com/goeat_dinemenuA.htm

and some excellent points more generally in that thread - suggests the demand might well be more for the recreation of the Griddle Car concept than 1st class dining. That might mean that decision taken by BR well before privatisation (concentrating on expenses market at that time) influenced the catering direction of travel afterwards - as opposed to, of course, and entrepreneurial approach that one might presume the private sector to be good at advancing...

Although as an aside I do find expenses angle a bit odd - I mean don't people pay for meals out from their own pocket ever?

'Casual dining' is of course one of the big growth areas in the catering trade (or so we are told - perhaps recently a bit of a downturn) so you might have expected the railway to have found a way to embrace that.

One of the posts reminded me of a recent trip Poznan to Berlin with an excellent PKP dining car - we went there for a beer and a snack but ended up have 3 courses because ti was all so good. And the less formal environment of the dining car there leant itself to that sort of ordering.

Kurolus Rex · 19 Feb 2020

Thanks for the replies all, i appreciate the insight!

Does anyone know what the food offers were like on the non-restaurant services? Was it pre-packaged combi oven food or was it prepared by the chef?

If the former, that would definitely seem more plausible if offering standard class passengers to be able to also order from the same menu as First Class and take it to their seat.

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
Thanks for the replies all, i appreciate the insight!

Does anyone know what the food offers were like on the non-restaurant services? Was it pre-packaged combi oven food or was it prepared by the chef?

If the former, that would definitely seem more plausible if offering standard class passengers to be able to also order from the same menu as First Class and take it to their seat.

Do you mean just on NXEC / GNER? Or more generally on inter city.

Kurolus Rex · 19 Feb 2020

WesternLancer said:
Do you mean just on NXEC / GNER? Or more generally on inter city.

NXEC/GNER

WesternLancer · 19 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
NXEC/GNER

It's a good question! I can't recall. I think it was other food prepped by buffet car staff as the non restaurant services would not have had chef on board to start with - but I'm making an assumption here and keen to hear what other people with more knowledge say about it! Also interesting to note how it was served in 1st - eg did it come on crockery for example and who served it on those services?

Kurolus Rex · 19 Feb 2020

WesternLancer said:
It's a good question! I can't recall. I think it was other food prepped by buffet car staff as the non restaurant services would not have had chef on board to start with - but I'm making an assumption here and keen to hear what other people with more knowledge say about it! Also interesting to note how it was served in 1st - eg did it come on crockery for example and who served it on those services?

Yes, i was wondering the same about crockery too.

Darandio · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
How did they do the chips? Surely a chip pan or deep fat fryer is not a safe thing to have on a moving train?

It's not the chip pan or deep fat fryer i'd be worried about. I've seen documentaries in BR days with a shallow tray of two dozen eggs sloshing around in oil and frying at 125mph. The pan always looked ready to jump off!

ainsworth74 · 19 Feb 2020

I was once on a train scheduled to have the restaurant but didn't I think due to the unavailability of a chef. In 1st they served the food on proper crockery but it was obviously a much more restricted menu. I recall it being nice enough but no where near as good as the restaurant or At-Seat Dining menu. This would be in East Coast days before the change to complementary service.

Kurolus Rex · 19 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I was once on a train scheduled to have the restaurant but didn't I think due to the unavailability of a chef. In 1st they served the food on proper crockery but it was obviously a much more restricted menu. I recall it being nice enough but no where near as good as the restaurant or At-Seat Dining menu. This would be in East Coast days before the change to complementary service.

Can you remember some examples of some of the food on offer?

ainsworth74 · 19 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
Can you remember some examples of some of the food on offer?

Only what I had which was a chicken korma with rice.

ainsworth74 · 19 Feb 2020

Kurolus Rex said:
Can you remember some examples of some of the food on offer?

Having prodded the Wayback Machine (here) I suspect that it was probably like the four things here. That entry is from June 2010 and I believe my experience will have been Aprilish 2011 (sadly I can't find a working version of that page for around then) but it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the menu would have changed between June 2010 and when I travelled!

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