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Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways
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Islineclear3_1
Established Member
bramling
Veteran Member
Great, so oncoming motorists can be blinded by your "loveliness"
That’s the point - at something like 0200 the hope is that there aren’t many of them.
How are speed cameras distracting?
Because people are distracted by where they are and constantly checking their speed.
Plus the bunching caused by people scared of going at 70 or with particularly low high reading speedos.
There is a well known phenomenon where drivers will brake suddenly just before the camera; causing accidents. Average cameras cause what Meerkat describes. Drivers will sit on the speed limit and constantly monitor their speed, rather than looking ahead.
Cameras are a bit of a double edged sword. They need to exist because they do control speed and there is evidence that they can reduce accidents.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would prefer them to move to average speed cameras on smart motorways from the present "e-Gatsos" - this removes the "panic braking" element now people know what they are. If you drift over, you just drift under a bit to correct the average.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Prior to the introduction of cameras on Smart Motorways there was basically, outside of roadworks, no speed enforcement on motorways, and an unwritten view by the Police that they would not prosecute for 80mph. As a result people tended to drive at 80-90mph - driving at 70 was actually quite hard as it'd be a choice between dodging in and out of lorries or a BMW up your backside flashing its lights. Smart motorways, due to the cameras, mean pretty much everyone caps it out at no more than about 75 indicated. A substantial reduction that reduces the risk of accidents, the severity of them and pollution.
Maybe on the motorways near you that wasn't the case, but on the M1 and M6 it absolutely was.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Unless you travel in the direction of London during morning rush hour where average speed can be anywhere between 10 - 30mph
Hide the cameras.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
On motorways, cameras are usually mounted on gantries or high posts on the roadside
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Much better just to have average speed cameras. They are far more effective than Gatsos, hidden or otherwise, and can average the speed over the distance between two gantries with displayed limits ensuring that, for example, people don't pass a gantry showing 40 and just speed up towards the next one showing 50.
I will give you the pollution but not at all convinced it makes a significant difference to safety.
The average speed cameras are a nightmare with traffic bunching up behind the person doing 67mph but unable to blip past. The dual carriageways in Scotland or roadworks are shocking for getting tailgating lorries (doing a Tacho accurate speed) stuck behind people who think they are doing the limit so won’t move over, but are actually doing a few mph less as their speedo is overreading.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Reducing speeds - on any road - absolutely does improve safety, both in terms of the number of accidents and their severity.
They need to get out and book people for tailgating (DWDCAA or dangerous driving). There is no excuse for it, whatever the car in front is doing. It is wilfully dangerous and totally unacceptable. Perhaps a day will come when the cameras can enforce that automatically, too, and people would just pack it in.
The difference between 67mph and 70mph is so negligible that people just need to wind their necks in and sit a safe distance behind if there's no space in the lane to the right to pass.
FWIW, one thing I do want to know is why cars with adaptive cruise control have the ability to be set to sit closer behind the car in front than the "two second rule" or similar. This is the cause of some of that. VWs have three settings - only the "lowest" one is properly safe and therefore that is the only one which should be available.
We are never going to agree on this! Improve safety how much?
The difference between 67 and 70 is significant on Motorways and creates massive bunching.
Average speed cameras make lane discipline worse because you are far more likely to get totally trapped if you move over.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Does it matter? The speed limit is 70mph. Therefore, nobody at all should be exceeding 70mph. Feel free to lobby for it to be increased (I do have some sympathy for an increase, in fair weather only, to 80mph, but with strict enforcement, i.e. 81mph = ticket). The only case for exceeding 70mph is if, in the event of something bad happening, "accelerating out of trouble" is prudent, and that's rare on a motorway as it normally relates to a misjudged long overtake on a single carriageway (with a short overtake you're near always best aborting and tucking back in behind).
Only due to poor driving. In any case, a stream of cars doing 67mph (or whatever) a safe distance apart is perfectly fine.
Nonsense. How would you get trapped if you were using the motorway correctly? If you've misjudged an overtake and end up in lane 2 alongside a car in lane 1 doing the same speed and need to get back in to leave the motorway, simply put your left indicator on and lift off the throttle, and tuck in behind the car you've decided not to overtake in the end, then lift off briefly again to increase the gap in front of you to an appropriate safe distance, then continue. The loud pedal is not always the answer.
70 is a totally arbitrary Limit that hasn’t adapted to the far increased car safety. The lack of, and opposition to, enforcement is a sign that it is not popularly supported. Most people are not dangerous, they wouldn’t go faster if it was unsafe.
it isn’t perfectly fine, as 70 is already too slow and 67 causes big bunching - a safety risk.
Firstly braking on a motorway is less safe than accelerating gently as it involves people behind you (concertina effect). But I think you misunderstood - I meant trapped inside, not outside. You move left into a gap which is steadily closing, but you are being overtaken by someone doing 0.5mph more than you and takes forever to go by. They then have a stream of cars behind them and so you can’t safely get out again.
Until there is a system that gets all the cars doing exactly the speed limit, or everyone has adaptive control, average speed cameras add more to the dangers than some people doing 90.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
The trouble is, no matter how good or defensive your driving is, you are always having to look out for other people misjudging or taking risks
I fear that too many average speed cameras and illuminated signs will cause driver distraction and increase the risk of rear-ending
One would also hope that ample warning is given to a lane closure as you only have 60sec to move over or face a hefty fine
I fear that too many average speed cameras and illuminated signs will cause driver distraction and increase the risk of rear-ending
One would also hope that ample warning is given to a lane closure as you only have 60sec to move over or face a hefty fine
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And as I said, actual bunching only occurs when people are committing the offence of Driving Without Due Care and Attention, and that needs prosecuting more often. Tailgating is unacceptable. End of. Don't do it. Three points and two hundred quid every time if the cameras could detect it and it'd soon stop. A stream of cars driving at a given speed with safe separation is not "bunching" and poses no danger.
Did you actually read what I said? You would not need to use the brakes, you simply ease off the accelerator slightly to lose one or two miles per hour off your speed.
Put your right indicator on and somebody will soon enough let you out.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Average speed cameras do nothing of the sort, because you don't have to obsessively check your speed, because if you drift over just slightly it averages out. They are far better than "point" speed cameras which tend to cause panic braking.
In my experience, unless the lane closure is because something bad has literally just happened right in front of you, they are done over a distance of several miles coupled with a reduction to 50 or even 40mph. Again much, much safer than on a conventional motorway even with matrixes, largely because people ignore the advisory limits on those.
Typically over a run of gantries a couple of hundred metres apart you'll get something like:
50 50 50
50 50 50
40 40 40
40 40 <-
40 40 <-
40 <- <-
40 <- <-
40 <- X
40 <- X
40 X X
Absolutely loads of notice.
Scousemouse
Member
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The cameras on smart motorways are always near a gantry and are preceded by three cameras on a pole. They are also yellow. You can normally see from quite a way off.
Nothing stopping you from going well over the limit in between them before scrubbing off speed in time for the three cameras.
Nothing stopping you from going well over the limit in between them before scrubbing off speed in time for the three cameras.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
But people do. I have many overtake me passing a yellow camera, move back in and then realise they're going too fast and brake sharply at the next camera. Usually, I have anticipated this but not every time...
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Thanks, that's encouraging to know
cactustwirly
Established Member
I disagree, braking suddenly on a motorway is dangerous especially if it is busy.
The safest thing to do in your example is to speed ahead at 75mph and cut in, in front of the car.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Braking? You lightly lift off the throttle, losing 1-2mph gradually, indicate and tuck back in.
If driving properly and other than in major congestion it is rarely necessary to use the brake on a motorway at all.
I live within the M25. Motorway cameras are, and have been for years, all over the place. Some mornings when i go to work its a light show from everyone speeding. The recent change to the law has been introduced to help prevent the mentality of people going +10% +/-3 and they can now get you for being just 1mph over. That change has been brought about by a change in the law. Again, not specifically by 'smart motorways'
I come up through Guilford on a semi regular basis too. There are places where you can, and many frequently do, reach 100mph+ The absence of a camera really, and here is where I agree with you, makes a difference. I also travel up and down the M3. Years ago, it was like a race track. As cameras were put in ( a few notorious ones) the speed decreased. Now its moving towards Smart Motorways I have found that there is actually way more congestion than there used to be. The 50mph section caused some kind of hell.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Which is also dangerous, as the cars behind won't notice you're decelerating without seeing your brake lights, which could cause them to brake sharply, causing bunching up.
If you accelerate and cut in the front you avoid all that.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they need to use their brakes for someone lightly lifting off, they are WAY too close (or they're using non-adaptive cruise control on a congested road, which is dangerous in itself), and that goes back to needing to get much stricter on spacing on motorways and the need for a load of people to be charged with DWDCAA.
cactustwirly
Established Member
So you're saying that cars should be miles apart from each other then?
If the motorway is congested, but still flowing at 70mph, I don't see how it is dangerous to use cruise control.
DerekC
Established Member
So you're saying that cars should be miles apart from each other then?
If the motorway is congested, but still flowing at 70mph, I don't see how it is dangerous to use cruise control.
@Bletchleyite did say non-adaptive cruise control, and I certainly wouldn't use that on a congested motorway at 70mph because by definition cars are close enough to need very rapid reaction to something unexpected happening.
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