Is a penalty fare void if there was no request to produce a valid ticket?

Suppose you board a train at a Penalty Fare station. You tell an authorised Penalty Fare collector that you haven't got a valid ticket for the journey. That is the first communication between you.

The collector wants to charge a penalty fare in accordance to the regulations, but knows there is no point asking you for a valid ticket.

Is requesting a valid ticket a necessary condition for charging the penalty fare?

I can't see how the penalty fare can lawfully be charged otherwise.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 said:

5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

Regulation 4 is not just about needing to have a ticket, or produce a ticket. It's about producing a ticket if "required to do so". What does that mean?

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 said:

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, *if required to do so* by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket. (2) A person present in or leaving a compulsory ticket area, other than as a result of leaving a train that arrived at that compulsory ticket area, must *if required to do* so by or on behalf of an operator produce - (a) a valid travel ticket; or (b) a platform ticket...

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If requesting is a necessary condition, might that be by design? In other words, did the drafters intend Penalty Fares not to apply to someone who volunteers unprompted that they do not have a valid ticket?

Or does "required" mean needed, rather than specifically requested?

I think it has to mean "ask". There is no general requirement to "produce" a ticket if you are not asked. The general "requirement" is separate - it is to have a valid ticket with you.

Some public information says you "may" have to pay a penalty fare if you travel without a valid ticket. But that doesn't say, or mean, that you are liable just because you did so.

Some other material seems to interpret "require" as "ask".

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 said:

13.—(1) Where a collector proposes to charge a person a penalty fare under regulation 5(1), that person must, subject to regulation 10(4), provide their name and address *when required to do so* by the collector.

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The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 Explanatory Note said:

(This note is not part of the Regulations)

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, *when required to do so*, a ticket or other authority...

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It doesn't say "when the law requires the person to have with them a valid ticket".

Penalty Fares Guidelines 2018 Third Edition said:

1.1.1 ...
If a customer cannot produce a valid ticket or authority to travel *when asked* by an Authorised Collector, or evidence to show the ability to purchase a ticket or authority to travel, they may be liable for a Penalty Fare.

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Northern Railway Penalty Fares Policy said:

REMEMBER
...
If you cannot produce a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice *when asked* to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare (minimum £20).
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

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National Rail Conditions of Travel said:

9.2. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket *when asked* and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:

9.2.1. To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below)...

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TfL Conditions of Carriage 15 December 2019 said:

3.2.5 ...You must be prepared to show your Oyster card (and supporting photocard, where needed), Oyster photocard,smartcard or contactless payment card on each journey, whenever *we ask* you to do so. If you fail to do so you may be liable to pay a penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

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Photos of signs:

http://ltjournalism.com/penalty-fares-hit-yorkshire-trainlines-ready/

https://hadrag.com/2018/06/04/penalty-fares-northern-promises-discretion/


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Strategic Rail Authority 2002 Penalty Fares Policy said:

1.3 A penalty fares scheme works on the same principle as a ‘pay and display’ car park, where motorists may have to pay a penalty if they do not buy a ticket when they park. Where penalty fares apply, rail passengers must buy their tickets before they start their journey wherever there are facilities for them to do so. If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities are available, they will have to pay a penalty fare *if asked* to do so by a ticket inspector who has been appointed as an ‘authorised collector’.

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Some previous posts on this:

some bloke said:

There's a question in my mind about whether the Pen Fare Regs really cover (in reg. 4) the case where someone voluntarily goes up to a ticket office and asks to buy a ticket, rather than being "required" to show a valid ticket.

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some bloke said:

I can't immediately think of a plausible sequence of events that would result in the seller fulfilling the criterion of asking JimmyC for a valid ticket. I wonder if this is a loophole in the Regulations with wider implications.

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Grebello said:

is it legal for them to issue fines at the ticket office, as surely being caught voluntarily trying to buy a ticket shows that there is no intent to avoid paying?

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some bloke said:

My view is that it isn't lawful in the likely circumstances, but for a different reason. It's a requirement for a penalty fare that you are asked for a ticket.

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There is also this.

7.3 refers to a request; 7.4 does not mention a request, but might be read in the context of 7.3 (and the fact that the regulations themselves do say "if required").

Penalty Fare Regulations 2018 Explanatory Memorandum said:

7.3 Where penalty fares apply, rail passengers must buy their tickets before they start their journey wherever there are facilities for them to do so. ... Passengers are obliged to produce their tickets at the request of an authorised collector acting on behalf of the relevant train or station operator. If a passenger is unable to produce a valid ticket, then an authorised collector can charge them a penalty fare.

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Penalty Fare Regulations 2018 Explanatory Memorandum said:

7.4 This instrument provides for two situations in which a person can be charged a penalty fare. The first is where a person is present on, travelling by or leaving a train and they cannot produce a valid ticket for their journey. This includes a person present in or leaving a station (or a compulsory ticket area within a station), having disembarked from a train. The second situation is where a person is present in, or is leaving, a compulsory ticket area in a station. In these circumstances a person can be charged a penalty fare if they cannot produce a valid ticket either for the journey they are intending to make or, if they do not intend to travel, authorising their presence in that compulsory ticket area.

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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/memorandum/contents

Perhaps this is also relevant:

The liability for a Penalty Fare is a contractual one. We might think that consumer law applies: if there is doubt, the interpretation of the Conditions of Travel, which says "when asked", and perhaps other public information, should be in the passenger's favour.

If you were about to be issued a penalty fare and had a valid ticket surely you would produce it would you not. And why would you say you did not have a valid ticket. If an Authorised Collector or Conductor is going through checking they are going to be asking for Tickets and Passes or something similar.

OxtedSignaller said:

why would you say you did not have a valid ticket.

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The issue came up where the person went to the ticket office at the destination and attempted to buy.

some bloke said:

The issue came up where the person went to the ticket office at the destination and attempted to buy.

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I think we need a lot more details before a meaningful answer can be given to any of these questions.

Llanigraham said:

I think we need a lot more details

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If you mean details of that case, links to both cases are at the end of the initial post above.

some bloke said:

If you mean details of that case, links to both cases are at the end of the initial post above.

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Sorry, but there are several links to various items of legislation and several quotes made by you, but NONE to any specific journey.

This is written without considering the particular case that you want to apply it to. But it seems to me that if a passenger volunteers that they haven't got a ticket, then that means they immediately fall foul of byelaw 18 for travelling without a ticket (unless they are exempted by one of the subclauses in that byelaw, which I think are exactly mirrored in the penalty fare rules, so needn't concern us). And that means that under byelaw 23 they can be required to give their name and address - which means that the railway now have everything they need for a successful byelaw prosecution i.e. the offender's admission that they have offended under byelaw 18, and their name and address to summons them.

So the consequence of insisting that a penalty fare cannot be issued would be to lay yourself open to a criminal prosecution - which on conviction would cost more than a penalty fare, and even if settled out of court might well be more expensive than a penalty fare.

So this raises the question of whether - from a passenger centred point of view - it's beneficial to try and restrict the scope of penalty fares. PFs aren't perfect - but they're cheaper to pay than a prosecution.

Incidentally, good call here by the OP to take this discussion out of the advice thread to a separate one: at the risk of trampling on the forum staff's toes, we're allowing far too many D&P threads to drift away from answering the specific question to speculating over the rules.

The two cases were considered earlier (quotations are at the end of the initial post above). They involve people trying to pay at a destination ticket office.

I'm suggesting that those responsible for the rules may have chosen to include "if required", to avoid people being penalised in that kind of situation. Otherwise why would they include it, rather than just saying that anyone travelling without a valid ticket is liable (with exceptions)?

If someone appeals the penalty fare giving this ground, as @Grebello has, and then loses, they can't be prosecuted; the question remains - are they liable?

Grebello said:

I've submitted an appeal based on the grounds I did everything in my power to purchase a ticket & stated I was only issued a penalty fare when trying to buy a ticket from the ticket desk, and also that I was not asked to present a ticket either.

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Llanigraham said:

there are several links to various items of legislation and several quotes made by you, but NONE to any specific journey.

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The quotations from @Grebello and me link to the two threads. These are from the initial posts:

JimmyC said:

I got off the train in Leeds and went straight to the ticket desk, I advised them that I had got on in Bramley and I needed a return ticket to and from there. Thy guy apologised that he had to issue me with a £20 fine

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Grebello said:

I tried to purchase a ticket at Burley Park Station as I was travelling to Leeds station to catch another train to London, however the machine was not accepting my card and I didn't have any cash on me. ...

...Upon arrival in Leeds station I went straight to the ticket desk on the platform side of the barrier to purchase a ticket for the train I had just been on as I had been unable to do so up until this point. On arrival at the desk I was pulled aside by a woman and told that I was getting fined.

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I agree with much of the reply above.

If a passenger openly claims to not have a valid ticket then the question is considered answered and the necessary steps should be taken from there.

If i walked up to you and said Hello, my name is Rob. You'd likely not consider asking my name for such a question has already been answered.

Yes, the question would already have been answered.

some bloke said:

It might have seemed odd if they did ask for a ticket, if JimmyC had already said he didn't have one.

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It isn't clear to me how @Grebello or @JimmyC incurred liability for a penalty fare, since it is not clear that the circumstances under which a penalty fare may be charged applied here.

Now that @Grebello has lost an appeal, the company can't prosecute.

Grebello said:

the initial appeal has been unsuccessful

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