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Cost of electrification OHLE vs 3rd rail

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AM9

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How significant is the friction between the contact (3rd+) rail and the collector shoes?

I would expect maybe a bit of friction there. Although it might be pretty low...
It's not relevant in energy terms, just shoe and conductor rail wear. The main issue is a poor electrical contact which owing to bounce, and surface conditions, causes massive erosion.

I wonder if the ORR would approve a third-rail electrification if combined with a conversion to overhead elsewhere, so that the overall mileage of 3-rail remained constant or diminished? For example, converting Southampton-Weymouth to AC and using the recovered DC equipment for the Marshlink or North Downs routes.
Not clear why you think Southampton to Weymouth would be electrified before Basingstoke to Southamption as the higher speeds and frequency would give a higher return there, especially if the Reading to Basingstoke line was fitted with OLE.
 
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Dr Hoo

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I wonder if the ORR would approve a third-rail electrification if combined with a conversion to overhead elsewhere, so that the overall mileage of 3-rail remained constant or diminished? For example, converting Southampton-Weymouth to AC and using the recovered DC equipment for the Marshlink or North Downs routes.
Well, hundreds of level crossings have been abolished but the ORR won’t allow any new ones, at least on the main line network. Portishead station positioning is a useful illustration of this policy. One can imagine that the same reasoning would apply to third rail routes.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Not clear why you think Southampton to Weymouth would be electrified before Basingstoke to Southamption as the higher speeds and frequency would give a higher return there, especially if the Reading to Basingstoke line was fitted with OLE.
I tend to agree with you. And, imho, Reading to Basingstoke OLE would be the highest priority of the three.
 

squizzler

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I made a tongue in cheek suggestion in a speculative thread once upon a time that whenever somebody suggests railways should be electrified at 750v DC third rail as an alternative to 25kv AC, we should come round their house and re-wire it from 240v AC to 12v DC. They will be required to use low powered appliances that connect into car cigar lighter sockets, and employ the time required to boil a kettle to reach enlightenment as to the benefits of a industry standard electrification at a useful voltage :)
 

HSTEd

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It’s not about congestion, but damage to the roads.
Even assuming damage to the roads is entirely caused by lorries, which it's not, and that all traffic lost from rail was lost to the road, which it wouldn't be (cement and stone is probably amenable to water transport).
This would increase road freight mileage by ~12%.
As almost all rail replacement mileage would be on the Strategic Road RN, which carries roughly half of all road freight mileage, we would be looking at a 24% increase in it's budget.

The SRN costs about £1.1bn a year, so we would be looking at something £250m a year extra.

Direct subsidies to rail freight run about £18-20m per annum.
So about £230m per year cost to the SRN net direct freight support.

But given that support to Network Rail is about £4,200m each year.......

It doesn't seem unlikely that net support would be lower.

I made a tongue in cheek suggestion in a speculative thread once upon a time that whenever somebody suggests railways should be electrified at 750v DC third rail as an alternative to 25kv AC, we should come round their house and re-wire it from 240v AC to 12v DC. They will be required to use low powered appliances that connect into car cigar lighter sockets, until such time as they reach enlightenment as to the benefits of a industry standard electrification at a useful voltage :)

If you can provide evidence that a third of the houses with electricity in the UK are so wired, then it would be a justifiable comparison.
The same argument would imply that 25kV was a worthless pile of junk next to the awesome power of 50kV.

Also 750Vdc is an industry standard electrification voltage, and it is pretty definitely useful given how much work it puts in every day.

And yes, I am a terrible pedant.
 
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D-Donkey

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Genuine question, although I can't help feeling that it sounds a bit flippant.

Is the overall benefit of the fact that 3rd rail doesn't blow down in high winds as has happened on many occasions with OHLE ever considered?
 

hwl

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Genuine question, although I can't help feeling that it sounds a bit flippant.

Is the overall benefit of the fact that 3rd rail doesn't blow down in high winds as has happened on many occasions with OHLE ever considered?
Somewhat outweighted by icing over in winter!
 

option

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If this is the case, why has there never been an issue with this in over 100 years of DC running worldwide (there's a lot in the USA), sufficient to close level crossings or prevent track access by maintenance staff. And furthermore, DC third rail still seems universally preferred by urban Metro systems.


NYC Subway has a cover over the third rail, & apart from at stations, it's very difficult to access the running lines.

Don't know what other US systems your thinking of, but the majority are either in tunnels or elevated, so lineside access isn't an issue.
 

option

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But not uniformly, which is the point. If a location (Liverpool) uses third rail as metro, work on developing that network normally, as would happen in any other major city, shouldn't be held to ransom by a blanket and ill judged policy that handicaps that city's abilities and ambitions, and burdens it with extra cost and obstacles unlike cities anywhere else in the world.

Metro/City areas inherently have limits, & existing 3rd rail lines have obvious end points.
eg. extending Merseyrail from Ellesmere Port to Helsby would be a logical extension/infill, & i'm sure the safety case could be relatively easily done. There's then nowhere else to go past that point.
 

HSTEd

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Don't know what other US systems your thinking of, but the majority are either in tunnels or elevated, so lineside access isn't an issue.
Long Island Rail Road uses top contact third rail and runs through open terrain.

EDIT:

If breaking backwards compatibility is acceptable, then an isolated 1500V 4-rail solution provides drastically improved safety and drastically improved energy efficiency and performance at modest additional cost.
 
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delticdave

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Long Island Rail Road uses top contact third rail and runs through open terrain.

MBTA , (Boston, USA) has 3 subway lines all using 3rd rail at ground level. (The Blue line also uses catenary it it's outer end.) urbanrail.net is a mine of info for rapid transit fans.

Washington DC, Philly, L.A, BART (S.F.) Baltimore, etc all use 3rd rail.
 

HSTEd

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Could I ask what has lead you to form that opinion?
The most glaring flaw with is that it is a Bo-Bo.
It's too light, which leads to it having insufficient tractive effort and means it hasn't got enough power on diesel to be truly useful outside of some very niche situations.

There is a reason that the previously "special duty" six axle locomotive is now the standard in the US and elsewhere.
 

MarkyT

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The most glaring flaw with is that it is a Bo-Bo.
It's too light, which leads to it having insufficient tractive effort and means it hasn't got enough power on diesel to be truly useful outside of some very niche situations.

There is a reason that the previously "special duty" six axle locomotive is now the standard in the US and elsewhere.
Most modern electric locos in Europe are four axle though. They often have to pair up for the heaviest freight duties though.

Class 88s should be built up to maximum axle load for the particular route availability chosen. Often with modern electric locos, a substantial ballast weight is added to achieve this, as modern electrical gear is comparatively light in weight. An engine and fuel tank are more useful than a big lump of concrete! I understand the main reason a larger diesel was not selected was the space constraint of the UK loading gauge. Similar locos for South Africa have the larger lump of the cl 68.
 

hwl

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Most modern electric locos in Europe are four axle though. They often have to pair up for the heaviest freight duties though.

Class 88s should be built up to maximum axle load for the particular route availability chosen. Often with modern electric locos, a substantial ballast weight is added to achieve this, as modern electrical gear is comparatively light in weight. An engine and fuel tank are more useful than a big lump of concrete! I understand the main reason a larger diesel was not selected was the space constraint of the UK loading gauge. Similar locos for South Africa have the larger lump of the cl 68.
The locos in South Africa turned out to be out of guage and contract cancelled with legal action on going.
 

Jozhua

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I do not usually post on forums and I maybe slightly biased but 3rd rail does present a reliable option for electrification and many of the comments posted on here are based on myths and not real facts. Conductor rail systems offer a cheaper, better looking and more reliable option to overhead systems. There are some disadvantages but there are also many advantages but the major one is cost, conductor systems are at least 50% cheaper than the OLE equivalent. If they are that outdated, then why do over 50% of modern metro system use them?

I believe Metro systems have less issues with potential accidental access.

When we can't even finish the planned electrification projects elsewhere in the country, there is no chance of a politician outlawing the existing 3rd rail lines in any foreseeable timescale.

"Sorry we can't electrify your diesel line as all the money and resources are being sent to Kent and Sussex so that we can replace their 3rd rail"

Yes replacing the 3rd rail infrastructure with like will cost money, but it will be massively less than the works required to rebuild tunnels and bridges across the Southeast.

Yeah, this is the main reason, those lines have already seen significant investment in regards to rolling stock and infrastructure. New rolling stock will probably be designed with squeezing the most out of 3rd rail and really pushing it to its limits first.

NYC Subway has a cover over the third rail, & apart from at stations, it's very difficult to access the running lines.

Don't know what other US systems your thinking of, but the majority are either in tunnels or elevated, so lineside access isn't an issue.

Around NYC, I know Metro North Railroad has 3rd rail, as does the Long Island Railroad. I know for sure Metro North has covers, I assume the LIRR is similar.

Chicago's L employs 3rd rail, even removed some OHLE a few years back for the sakes of unity.

In North America generally, Toronto subway seems to be 3rd rail. I'd guess the likes of MTBA to be that way too.
 

Jozhua

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By the way, there may also be another solution. How suitable it is for heavy rail may be up for debate.

Alstom's APS provides ground level power for trams running on the street. The system is used in Bordeaux and Rio.

Unlike the track-side third rail used by most metro trains and some main-line railways, APS does not pose a danger to people or animals and so can be used in pedestrian areas and city streets.

APS uses a third rail placed between the running rails, divided electrically into ten-metre rail segments with three-metre neutral sections between. Each tram has two power collection shoes, next to which are antennas that send radio signals to energise the power rail segments as the tram passes over them. At any one time, two consecutive segments under the tram will be live.

Frankly Wikipedia does a better job of explaining it than me lol.

APS seems to offer a solution for some tram networks, especially those looking to minimise visual intrusion. However, I do wonder about the level of power that can be delivered, the speed restrictions this technology may entail and how cost effective it is over long distances.

However, with the obvious issue of having to rip up and build new tunnels, bridges, etc with the UK's terrible loading guage, perhaps it could offer a genuinely cost effective solution. I would expect to see this deployed in UK tramways soon, especially considering Birmingham's experiments with battery power.

Perhaps Alstom should look at bringing this to heavy rail if at all possible, maybe they assumed it had no use in normal countries, but in the UK, it may be what we need ;)
 

D365

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Perhaps Alstom should look at bringing this to heavy rail if at all possible, maybe they assumed it had no use in normal countries, but in the UK, it may be what we need ;)

The big issue I can see is, how can you convince the ORR that there is absolutely no chance of accidental energisation of the third rail sections.
 

apk55

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These APS systems must be horrifically expensive to install and I could only see them being used for short sections of city center street running.
For a start each section is going to require a contactor which would probably need to be duplicated as contactors can fail short circuit and if this happened and a section remained live there would be a justified public outcry. Then where would you put these contactors, you would need access for maintenance so a hole in the middle of the road is out and the obvious approach would be would be a track-side cabinet. Therefore you would probably be looking at a large cabinet every 100M stuffed with 40 contactors each bouncing in and out 100s of times a day. In addition you would need to run a parallel feeder cable of several thousand amps rating to supply all of these contactors.

Also what height would the conductor rail need to be. If the same height as the running rails then collector shoes would contact the running rails at junctions so you would need switching on the tram to cope with this. If raised above the rails it would cause problems wit road crossings or a trip hazard.
 
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MarkyT

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APS reminds me of the Dolter stud system we had in Torquay on the local tramway inaugurated in 1907. It lasted only a short time until the company was forced by local authorities to change the whole system over to conventional trolley wire ready for the extension to Paignton in 1911. The trams had a pick up 'ski' between the wheels long enough to be in contact with at least one ground level stud at all times. The studs were activated by a powerful magnet under the vehicle remotely operating contacts under the road. Needless to say, there were cases of contacts remaining closed with studs energised when no tram was about. Ubiquitous horses of the time were particularly vulnerable to being shocked by stepping on them.
 

Class83

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Metro/City areas inherently have limits, & existing 3rd rail lines have obvious end points.
eg. extending Merseyrail from Ellesmere Port to Helsby would be a logical extension/infill, & i'm sure the safety case could be relatively easily done. There's then nowhere else to go past that point.

Bidston-Heswall-Neston would be a fairly sensible extension as it would allow direct rains into Liverpool. Shortish section, but complementary to an existing 3rd rail network.
 
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