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First class ticket with bus replacement

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Gnasher11

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Hi all,
As above, I have a First class summer sale ticket for Paddington to Penzance tomorrow, but the Truro to Penzance is bus replacement due to planned engineering.
Would I be likely to get the difference between first class and standard ticket refunded on this basis, or does it all hinge on whether the bus replacement was in timetable at point of booking, if so, how do I check if this was the case?
Thanks
 
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Merle Haggard

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First Class on rail replacement buses is an interesting one.
To allow for NR possessions. the first Up service from Northampton is timetabled every Sunday as a bus from Northampton to Milton Keynes, forward on an all-stations train. MK is about 1/3rd of the distance to Euston, and the total distance is 65 3/4 mi. NRES gives the following fares from Northampton to Euston for this Sunday as Standard - £18, First £50. (I looked a couple of weeks ago, and the 1st fare then was £89).
This suggests that the implication of buses not having two classes is regarded as irrelevant by those who set fares, so I am not hopeful on your behalf.
 
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sheff1

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The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) state:
31.1. If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund. The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used. You must write to the Train Company to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled
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Prior to introduction of the NRCoT in October 2016 the, now superseded, National Rail Conditions of Carriage stated:
The term “train” in this context includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its behalf.
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Unfortuntely, no such definiition is included in the NRCoT which are far less clear on the matter. What is clear, though, is if you bought the ticket after the bus replacement was announced you will not be entitled to a refund.
 
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30907

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gray1404 said:
It is definitely worth a request to Customer Services quoting the above
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I am sure it is, but what was the difference in fares to Truro and Penzance when you booked? I suspect your entitlement may be tending towards zero :(
 
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EssexGonzo

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sheff1 said:
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) state:


Prior to introduction of the NRCoT in October 2016 the, now superseded, National Rail Conditions of Carriage stated:


Unfortuntely, no such definiition is included in the NRCoT which are far less clear on the matter. What is clear, though, is if you bought the ticket after the bus replacement was announced you will not be entitled to a refund.
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Surely, if the service (bus or train) has no 1st class provision, the TOC shouldn't be selling tickets for a 1st class service? Taking payment for a level of service that doesn't exist is fraud?
 
Starmill

Starmill

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EssexGonzo said:
Surely, if the service (bus or train) has no 1st class provision, the TOC shouldn't be selling tickets for a 1st class service? Taking payment for a level of service that doesn't exist is fraud?
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Is it? Consider a journey from Pwllheli to Hinckley. No First Class is possible between Pwllheli and Shrewsbury, and there's no First Class available on any of the trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham New Street , which will be the ones you are booked on by default. Use of another train would extend your journey and require more than one change. However, there is First Class for the journey between Birmingham New Street and Hinckley.

A single in Standard would be £81.80 and in First would be £164.80. You'd be sat in Standard for around 5 hours with a First Class ticket, and First for 40 minutes between Hinckley and Birmingham.

A Standard ticket from Pwllheli to Birmingham would be £35.30. A First Class ticket from Birmingham to Hinckley would be £36.10.

Is selling the £164.80 ticket 'fraud'?
 
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EssexGonzo

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Starmill said:
Is it? Consider a journey from Pwllheli to Hinckley. No First Class is possible between Pwllheli and Shrewsbury, and there's no First Class available on any of the trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham New Street , which will be the ones you are booked on by default. Use of another train would extend your journey and require more than one change. However, there is First Class for the journey between Birmingham New Street and Hinckley.

A single in Standard would be £81.80 and in First would be £164.80. You'd be sat in Standard for around 5 hours with a First Class ticket, and First for 40 minutes between Hinckley and Birmingham.

A Standard ticket from Pwllheli to Birmingham would be £35.30. A First Class ticket from Birmingham to Hinckley would be £36.10.

Is selling the £164.80 ticket 'fraud'?
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That's a grey area and confuses the original question posed by the OP because part of the service contains 1st class facilities.

In his case, the train was a bus with no 1st class for ANY part of that specific service. It's pretty clear that a 1st class ticket for such a service should not have been sold. If it was done knowingly - fraud. Definition: "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain". Wrongful in this case, rather than criminal.

If it was done inadvertently - a mistake. Which should be rectified.
 
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robbeech

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But there is first class from Paddington to Truro is there not?
 
Starmill

Starmill

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EssexGonzo said:
That's a grey area and confuses the original question posed by the OP because part of the service contains 1st class facilities.

In his case, the train was a bus with no 1st class for ANY part of that specific service. It's pretty clear that a 1st class ticket for such a service should not have been sold. If it was done knowingly - fraud. Definition: "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain". Wrongful in this case, rather than criminal.

If it was done inadvertently - a mistake. Which should be rectified.
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Part of the service procured by the OP contains first class facilities?
 
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yorkie

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EssexGonzo said:
Surely, if the service (bus or train) has no 1st class provision, the TOC shouldn't be selling tickets for a 1st class service? Taking payment for a level of service that doesn't exist is fraud?
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But there is a 1st class service from Paddington.

If the booked itinerary is the same as the itinerary being undertaken then there is no issue with this at all.

A refund or compensation would only be applicable if there has been a variation between the contract that was offered and the service actually provided.

@Gnasher11 What was the booked itinerary exactly?
 
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Gnasher11

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Hi,
On replacement bus at the moment:
Itinerary presented to me by the booking in my GWR account was:
09:04 Paddington to Plymouth (1st class available)
12:19 Plymouth to Truro
(4 coach train no 1st class)
13:44 Truro to Penzance RRB

I genuinely can't rember if it was the same when booked early January. As was mentioned up thread, the difference in fare is probably not great, more the principal. GWR website is selling 1st class fare for same journey tomorrow.
 
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yorkie

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Bletchleyite said:
Do you get a saving if you split tickets at Plymouth, for a First Class ticket that far and a Standard one the rest of the way?
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Not in this case, no. The fare to Truro is only about £5 more than the fare to Plymouth!

Where this does apply, train companies will offer the through fare regardless; it's therefore prudent to book through a split ticket website in order to avoid any possibility of paying extra (and gain access to an online seat selector!)
 
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Gnasher11

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I don't normally travel 1st class, but have Devon & Cornwall Railcard for anything beyond Tiverton, but sometimes advances even beat splitting and using the Railcard.
 
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yorkie

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Gnasher11 said:
I don't normally travel 1st class, but have Devon & Cornwall Railcard for anything beyond Tiverton, but sometimes advances even beat splitting and using the Railcard.
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No reason why you can't combine all three and there are sites that will calculate this for you :)
 
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