South Wales 'Metro' updates

Tom Quinne said:

I see empty trains most of the day everyday in afraid, more stick and a very pointy one at that with congestion taxing to force people to use poor public transport.

No doubt those who have forced the tax through will be able to claim back their charges, or have drivers to ferry them about.

I’ll happily eat my hat if in 2025/26 we’ve a fantastic metro style turn up and go train service, with properly joined up public transport for all, at all times of the day and night - and weekends.

I really can’t see it though.

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So you can think the final Metro plans for 2023/24 are poor? Why?

The air in inner city areas of Cardiff is toxic and congestion is at breaking point. A congestion charge is needed to force people out of cars, whether you call that a stick or not is up to you, but it's needed. It's now a public health risk - I know - I have to breathe in the pollution from people's cars in inner city Cardiff every day.

S-Bahn said:

I'm assuming the plan is to run paired up tram trains on some of the peak time services? If not, then those services will be just as overcrowded as they are now.

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Yes, the plan is that every other tram train will be paired, so 6 of the 12 south of Pontypridd in an hour will be.

edwin_m said:

Turn up and go service is important for attracting the off peak passengers who can be accommodated easily when the needs during commuter peaks dictate what resources are available (trains and infrastructure capacity). Many of those off-peak passengers will be heading for the shopping areas of Cardiff, and Queen Street is most convenient for most of these. Those who want Central or the Bay may find the first train isn't going there, but even if they choose to make a change en route the numbers doing so are manageable at off-peak times when the system is below capacity. Slightly less clear-cut for those whose route to Queen Street is via the City Line and Central.

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A train every 15 minutes isn't quite "turn up and go" but let's not get into that.

You're concern appears to be that there are still only two tph from Aberdare, Merthyr etc to Cardiff Central and that this will put some people off. There'll be no shortage of connections from Queen Street to Central so that's not an issue. People are happy enough to make the chnage at Queen Street when travelling to/from the Bay so I don't see it being an issue. And as I said in my own post, don't assume everyone from the valleys is heading to Cardiff Central.

PaulHarding150 said:

And as I said in my own post, don't assume everyone from the valleys is heading to Cardiff Central.

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Given the rampant office building around Cardiff Central, it's likely that there will be a significant increase in travellers by the time the Metro goes live.

S-Bahn said:

Given the rampant office building around Cardiff Central, it's likely that there will be a significant increase in travellers by the time the Metro goes live.

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There's also significant office development on Callaghan Square and Tyndal Street which will be served by Queen Street as well as soon to start building work on Dumbles Road which will be served by Loudoun Square.

Can I ask what you solution is? You seem to want every train from the Valleys to serve Queen Street and Central as they do now. Would you be happy with the bay branch remaining as it is?

Cardiff123 said:

So you can think the final Metro plans for 2023/24 are poor? Why?

The air in inner city areas of Cardiff is toxic and congestion is at breaking point. A congestion charge is needed to force people out of cars, whether you call that a stick or not is up to you, but it's needed. It's now a public health risk - I know - I have to breathe in the pollution from people's cars in inner city Cardiff every day.

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Let’s say a congestion tax is £2 per day, I work three ways a week so £24 a week, £96 a month or £1152 per year.

That’s without petrol about £1.14 per litre at the moment, about £35 a tank I’ve a 1.0 petrol car. I use about a tank a week, so £140 a month £1680 a year at current rates.

So just getting to work is going to cost me about £2832 a year just to get to work.

It takes me about 25-35 minutes door to door at present with at least 6 ways of getting work if traffic is bad.

I need to be at work for 0630 and 1830 365 days a year.

The first train from my home station to Cardiff is 0608 - into Cardiff at 0621 it takes me 15 minutes to walk from the station to work so 0635 IF the train is on time or isn’t cancelled, that’s Monday to Saturday on a normal day.

12hr working day..finish at 1830 + 15 minute walk to the station.

Going home 1845 off Cardiff, home 1857

Sunday
0921 is the first train to Cardiff for a 0630 start.

How is public transport going to work for me?
I don’t have a choice but drive into Cardiff at my own expense, that’s not adding in the bus to the railway station, or car parking if I can get one at the station.

Cycling is a 18 mile trip each way, walk? About 4hrs each way.

It’s all well and good saying charge car drivers to drive into Cardiff, but the reality is a significant number of people simply can’t due to their work patterns.

A charge for driving in Cardiff at 6.30am or 6.30pm isn't a congestion charge, it's just an anti car charge.

It's not people like Tom who are causing the congestion.

Tom Quinne said:

Let’s say a congestion tax is £2 per day, I work three ways a week so £24 a week, £96 a month or £1152 per year.

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Sorry for being thick but if it's £2 per day (as has been suggested by Cardiff Council) how do you get £24pw? I've no idea if Cardiff Council plan to operate this on weekends, London don't even do that.

Far safer to assume £10 a week, 48 weeks a year for a full time worker.

Night shift last night £6 per week, £24 per month on a basic 12 day month.

So £24 per month, not the £96 you previously quoted then? Not really going to break the bank is it, and we do need to do something to shape people's behaviour.

Tom Quinne said:

Let’s say a congestion tax is £2 per day, I work three ways a week so £24 a week, £96 a month or £1152 per year.

That’s without petrol about £1.14 per litre at the moment, about £35 a tank I’ve a 1.0 petrol car. I use about a tank a week, so £140 a month £1680 a year at current rates.

So just getting to work is going to cost me about £2832 a year just to get to work.

It takes me about 25-35 minutes door to door at present with at least 6 ways of getting work if traffic is bad.

I need to be at work for 0630 and 1830 365 days a year.

The first train from my home station to Cardiff is 0608 - into Cardiff at 0621 it takes me 15 minutes to walk from the station to work so 0635 IF the train is on time or isn’t cancelled, that’s Monday to Saturday on a normal day.

12hr working day..finish at 1830 + 15 minute walk to the station.

Going home 1845 off Cardiff, home 1857

Sunday
0921 is the first train to Cardiff for a 0630 start.

How is public transport going to work for me?
I don’t have a choice but drive into Cardiff at my own expense, that’s not adding in the bus to the railway station, or car parking if I can get one at the station.

Cycling is a 18 mile trip each way, walk? About 4hrs each way.

It’s all well and good saying charge car drivers to drive into Cardiff, but the reality is a significant number of people simply can’t due to their work patterns.

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Why are you taking today's service patterns for what the service patterns will be in 2024 when the congestion charge is proposed to come in?

There will be a major timetable overhaul by December 2023 with earlier services, later and more frequent evening services, and many more Sunday services.
You cannot compare what we have now to what the timetable will be in 2023/24. This isn't 'pie in the sky' thinking. All of the details are available to read at www.tfw.wales

There will also be a major overhaul of bus services in Cardiff, with a plan to bring all Cardiff Bus fares down to £1, and integrated ticketing across all of public transport in the SE Wales Metro region.

The congestion charge will also be used to fund further improvements to public transport.

When YOU are public transport how do you use public transport?

How to traincrew, operations staff and bus crews get to work to operate the all these extra earlier and later services if YOU need to be that later or earlier service, or if your required to be there prior to allow those services to run?

It’s fantastic for the people who work from 0800 or 0900 until 1600 or 1700, or who go out into town until late that they can now use the train or bus, but there’s a huge number of people who will never - no matter how good it is - be able to use public transport.

Why should they be made to suffer?
The congestion tax will start at a very reasonable £2 or similar low rate during peak hours only Mon to Fri. But you can bet your house on the fact it’ll slowly be increased in charge and operational hours once the council
realise how much money they can make from it.

Fear not though, the extra income will be “reinvested” into public transport !

Look at London, one of the greatest cities on the face of earth..

Underground lines with 20+ TPH 20hrs a day.
Overground with 15+ TPH on certain lines.
Trams, Docklands Light Railway, Crossrail, massive heavy rail provision, the highest bus service level in the country combined with contactless ticketing, fully integrated and extremely cheap.

Congestion and low emission charges, sky high parking charges, but they still suffer with huge levels of traffic congestion.

Why do you think Cardiff and the surrounding area will be any different, when the budget will be fraction of what London has and had.

Tom Quinne said:

When YOU are public transport how do you use public transport?

How to traincrew, operations staff and bus crews get to work to operate the all these extra earlier and later services if YOU need to be that later or earlier service, or if your required to be there prior to allow those services to run?

It’s fantastic for the people who work from 0800 or 0900 until 1600 or 1700, or who go out into town until late that they can now use the train or bus, but there’s a huge number of people who will never - no matter how good it is - be able to use public transport.

Why should they be made to suffer?

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Why should people in inner city Cardiff 'suffer' and breathe in toxic air that is damaging their health? Not to mention children in inner city schools at breaktimes. We are already at a stage where 'air pollution' is being cited on people's death certificates.

The congestion tax will start at a very reasonable £2 or similar low rate during peak hours only Mon to Fri. But you can bet your house on the fact it’ll slowly be increased in charge and operational hours once the council
realise how much money they can make from it.

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I doubt the council will make any money from it. The vast majority, if not all of the money made from the congestion charge will be sent to Welsh Govt to pay for public transport improvements.
And obviously there won't be a charge to pay before 6am and after 10pm when everyone else is in bed.

And who is to say that a skeleton service won't eventually be run overnight for shift workers?

Fear not though, the extra income will be “reinvested” into public transport !

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And why is this a bad thing?

Cardiff's population had doubled in the last 20 years. Carrying on as before is not an option. But you obviously can't see that so it's best we leave this discussion here.

Tom Quinne said:

When YOU are public transport how do you use public transport?

How to traincrew, operations staff and bus crews get to work to operate the all these extra earlier and later services if YOU need to be that later or earlier service, or if your required to be there prior to allow those services to run?

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That's a valid point, but I would expect the congestion charge to kick in after the first trains start running (eg in London it is 7am), so if you enter the zone before then you will be ok. It would still hit you if you need to drive in as you are operating the last bus/train of the evening admittedly, but assuming a balanced distribution of shifts that shouldn't be too much of a burden.

I really really wish I had your confidence in the system.

I don’t though, unfortunately.

Cardiff123 said:

There will also be a major overhaul of bus services in Cardiff, with a plan to bring all Cardiff Bus fares down to £1, and integrated ticketing across all of public transport in the SE Wales Metro region.

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This has to be a major part of the mix to get people out of cars, along with active travel. Extra trains, and shiny new slightly faster ones at that will be more attractive than the current offering, but rail per se is only useful if it serves your door-to-door journey. There are vast swathes of the Cardiff area not served by rail, who will need to be provided with a viable alternative to driving prior to a congestion charge being implemented. That needs to be high quality with reliable journey times, hence will also need some serious investment and bold re-allocation of road space.

Workplace parking levies in the city centre may be another stick (not for critical shift workers like train crew or nurses though). With the Valleys tram depot and infrastructure control etc being at Taff's Well, presumably more traincrew can be based there, rather than Central?

You still have “low paid” staff like customer hosts, ticket office staff, platform staff, WH Smith staff etc.

Why should critical workers have another tax when they’ve no choice but to drive into central Cardiff ?

As usual the less well off suffer, meanwhile the people who can pay - pay and carry on as usual.

Tom Quinne said:

You still have “low paid” staff like customer hosts, ticket office staff, platform staff, WH Smith staff etc.

Why should critical workers have another tax when they’ve no choice but to drive into central Cardiff ?

As usual the less well off suffer, meanwhile the people who can pay - pay and carry on as usual.

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Are you looking for exemptions from this scheme for critical workers, suitable remuneration to compensate them for the extra expense, or the abandonment of the entire scheme?

I note a vast decrease in the amount of traffic this week due to the schools being closed. The M4 around Newport & the A470 coming down from the valleys to Cardiff are all running clearly. Even Llandaff is jam free at 8am! Surely, all the extra traffic that we normally see can’t be just school teachers going to work? Someone I know who lives near the private schools in Llandaff says that the 17 & 18 year olds are given cars by their parents and dump them all day in her street. (Could these be the same teens who go on the extinction rebellion protests)?

What is certainly clear is that a lot of parents are driving kids to school in places like Cardiff. (I can understand this if people live out in the sticks). Another factor in a city like Cardiff is that instead of having just your local comprehensive to attend, we have a wide variety of schools: - religious (because all the teens like to go to church); Welsh Language (3 out of the 16 high schools in Cardiff) plus of course the private schools and the comprehensives. So, by people desiring all these different schools instead of attending a local comprehensive, we are generating a vast increase in traffic and hence, pollution.

A few days ago, I happened to stop by the new Plasdwr development marketing place - which was closed. Anyway, I met in the car park a man & wife who were prospective buyers and we got talking. Turned out that they worked at Heath Hospital. I pointed out that it would be a very difficult journey via congested Llandaff to get from Plasdwr to work at the hospital. (They were planning to go by car). They said they wanted to buy at Plasdwr because they had a child about to go to high school and they hoped that they could get this child into the Bishop of Llandaff High or Radyr High. I suggested that Cardiff High was good school and much nearer the hospital for commuting. They said that they could not afford a property in the Cardiff High catchment area. They had never heard of ‘The Metro’. So, it appears that any thought of having to wade through the traffic congestion at Llandaff had not entered their heads. What mattered was getting the offspring into a desirable school. What I think should be made clear regarding Plasdwr is that if the new line is built out to Cregiau, that the locations of stations and the links from the dwellings is designed now.

Then I met an elderly lady who lives about an 8 minute walk from Waungron Park station on the City Line. She said that she was driving over to see her friend - who it turns out lives near Rhiwbeina station but dreads driving through all the traffic. I suggested that she take the train. She was completely unaware that sh could use one train to get from Waungron to Rhibeina or that the bus pass would get her a third off the fare.

Last week a plumber from Danescourt came to do some work in my house. I said that it must be very handy living just a 3 minute walk from Danescourt station. He said that he had never used the train and always drives into town - via Llandaff. I said that he would find it much quicker to use the train.

Sorry to ramble on but it seems that some sort of promotion should be made to induce people to use the trains - at least where capacity is available - and it usually is on the City Line outside the morning weekday peak or when an event takes place at the soccer stadium. I also wonder how many children are being driven to say the Bishop of Llandaff High when they could use the City Line to Fairwater station = a 4 minute walk away. Are they dissuaded by fares for relatively short hops? Is it not the case that children get free travel on the Cambrian Line to Harlech Comprehensive? (Under 16’s in Wales now have free travel at off-peak times & only if with a paying adult).

The reduction in traffic during school holidays is not solely attributable to schools traffic. It’s as much the fact that many more people are on holiday so are not commuting. You can see this in commuter rail networks being less busy too.

It’s not just people actually going away on holiday, but parents of younger children taking a few days off because of childcare needs or where they are able to working from home.

I suspect road congestion is very sensitive to traffic volumes too. So what might seem a small reduction in % terms suddenly means the traffic flows a lot quicker, as delays and queues don’t built as quickly as the rush hour progresses. Eg, if the entrance to a roundabout has a capacity of 10 cars per minute and 11 turn up on average, after an hour there is a queue of 60 cars, or 6 minutes delay. A reduction of 9% back to 10 cars means the traffic flows freely and no delay builds up.

I don't know about Bishop of Llandaff but the Catholic secondary school in Newport has a comprehensive network of buses and there seem to be very few parents driving their children there. Having said that, there is a big supermarket next door so maybe they're parking there.

Travelling to favoured schools raises another interesting point; travelling to favoured jobs. Here on the western fringe of Newport there is a wide range of employment; Airbus, Lloyds Bank, GoCompare, Virgin Media, the Stats and IP offices, ASDA supermarket and Newport Wafer Fab to name but a few.

There is also a wide choice of housing, from Council flats to quite expensive private houses.

Yet the majority seem to travel in or out to work.

Tom Quinne said:

You still have “low paid” staff like customer hosts, ticket office staff, platform staff, WH Smith staff etc.

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Who will able to get the much improved public transport offer that will be in place before the congestion charge is implemented, as has been explained.

Why should critical workers have another tax when they’ve no choice but to drive into central Cardiff ?

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Why do they have 'no choice' but to drive? I suspect you are still assuming the public transport offer we have now is what we will have in 2024, and it's been explained that it will not be. And the congestion charge will not be 24 hours, again as has been explained.

As usual the less well off suffer, meanwhile the people who can pay - pay and carry on as usual.

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Yes they do, because the 'less well off' are more likely to live in inner city Cardiff and are having their health impacted due to unmanageable congestion and illegal levels of air pollution in the city.

[QUOTE="Cardiff123, post: 4449105, member: 19639"
Yes they do, because the 'less well off' are more likely to live in inner city Cardiff and are having their health impacted due to unmanageable congestion and illegal levels of air pollution in the city.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. It is terrible that people have to put up with air pollution caused by traffic near their homes. Cardiff Council have given permission for dwellings to be built by noisy roads such as the A4119 (Llantrisant Road) with associated air pollution - part of the flawed Plasdwr Masterplan as set out by consultants Vectos. They even market Plasdwr as ‘A Garden Village’. The only ‘garden' thing about it the fact that areas of woodland are being left on steep slopes along with marsh by the Waterfall brook. Looking at even the more expensive houses built so far by Redrow, we see typical replicas of 1930’s type houses along with garages only big enough for a Model T Ford of the era. Goodness knows how people will get modern cars into the garages, be able to open the doors and plug in their electric car charger?

Cardiff123 said:

Who will able to get the much improved public transport offer that will be in place before the congestion charge is implemented, as has been explained.



Why do they have 'no choice' but to drive? I suspect you are still assuming the public transport offer we have now is what we will have in 2024, and it's been explained that it will not be. And the congestion charge will not be 24 hours, again as has been explained.



Yes they do, because the 'less well off' are more likely to live in inner city Cardiff and are having their health impacted due to unmanageable congestion and illegal levels of air pollution in the city.

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Apologies for so thick after you'd explained it to me.

I know you’ve explained many times, you’ll have to forgive my lowbrow - how do people who are not on public transport routes, even in the golden age to come get to work?

They use their car..

I explained that London still has congestion and pollution regardless of their vehicle taxes, why do you think Cardiff is any different?

Envoy said:

[QUOTE="Cardiff123, post: 4449105, member: 19639"
Yes they do, because the 'less well off' are more likely to live in inner city Cardiff and are having their health impacted due to unmanageable congestion and illegal levels of air pollution in the city.

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I totally agree. It is terrible that people have to put up with air pollution caused by traffic near their homes. Cardiff Council have given permission for dwellings to be built by noisy roads such as the A4119 (Llantrisant Road) with associated air pollution - part of the flawed Plasdwr Masterplan as set out by consultants Vectos. They even market Plasdwr as ‘A Garden Village’. The only ‘garden' thing about it the fact that areas of woodland are being left on steep slopes along with marsh by the Waterfall brook. Looking at even the more expensive houses built so far by Redrow, we see typical replicas of 1930’s type houses along with garages only big enough for a Model T Ford of the era. Goodness knows how people will get modern cars into the garages, be able to open the doors and plug in their electric car charger?[/QUOTE]

Funny you should mention Redrow and their 1930 style houses, as I have one and very nice it is to.

However, there are ZERO environmentally friendly features, like solar panels, rain water collection etc let alone electric car charging points on a house which costs a small fortune!

Ironically the social housing in the city have these features, minus the car charge points.

Tom Quinne said:

Apologies for so thick after you'd explained it to me.

I know you’ve explained many times, you’ll have to forgive my lowbrow - how do people who are not on public transport routes, even in the golden age to come get to work?

They use their car..

I explained that London still has congestion and pollution regardless of their vehicle taxes, why do you think Cardiff is any different?

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Well under TfW's plans to expand car parking and have more P&R's they can drive to their nearest station and get the train in to the city.
Or people can drive to the East or West P&R's run by Cardiff bus and get the bus in to the city.
You just need to know about these things and use them.

So pay for parking at the station, pay for the train and take more time ?
Using more petrol, emitting more pollution taking the D tour to the station or park and ride?

Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

Tom Quinne said:

So pay for parking at the station, pay for the train and take more time ?
Using more petrol, emitting more pollution taking the D tour to the station or park and ride?

Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

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Probably because public transport just isn't an option if you're delivering goods or are a tradesman with a vanful of tools and materials for example. If you're wealthy enough you will avoid public transport and drive or get a taxi, adding to the congestion.

I didn’t think about trades(wo)man to be honest, Cardiff 123 will expect plumbers and builders to carry their tools on their backs or store them in the bike bays on the train.

The rich or with means will continue to drive their 3.5 litre 4X4 into the city paying the charge, whilst Timmy Jones on minimum wages is forced to use public transport taking time away from his family due to his vastly extended working day.

Id love buy an electric car, but neither my house (built in the last 18 months) or employment location (massive national company) provide electric charging bays.