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Penalty Fare Issuing but no contact

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NSVX

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Hi all, I have a question that I would like to pose in search of an answer to something that has been playing on my mind in recent time.

around 2-3 months ago, I boarded a GN Train at New Barnet intending to delight the train at Finsbury Park. I tapped my Zip Card at the barrier as I am under 16, for the barrier not to work. I knew the reason for this was because the gates at this particular station operate with a child lock turned on, meaning the barriers did not open. The balance on my Oyster was that above £20, meaning I of course had sufficient funds to start as well as finish my journey. As the gates did not open, and the train had just arrived, I opened one of the side metal gates which are intended for use when the platform is busy, but I felt as if this was justified with there being no station staff on site and therefore no other means on boarding the train in time.

After being on the train for a few minutes, a ticket inspector came along, and of course asked me to produce my valid travel authority, which after I explained to him that the gates were not working, he proceeded to issue me with a penalty fare. I told him I did not have any cash on me, nor a card, as I believed I already had the appropriate 'ticket' for travel, so would not be requiring any money on my person. This was the truth, I also do not tend to carry cash on me unless in specific circumstance as I have been mugged of my possessions before.

He said the notice would appeal in the post in 14 days, in which I accepted and informed him an appeal would be lodged. I was fully compliant as well as polite, explained the circumstances well, showed him the 50+ tickets I had on me at the time due to the fact I use the service daily in the other direction, in order to prove I am a fully paying customer looking for no trouble. I also had my season monthly ticket on me going in the other direction, adding more proof that I am a frequent passenger who pays their fares without exception.

However many months on, I still have not received any notice in the post, so could somebody advise me on what the situation is, whether or not I can expect any communication, or whether they may have dropped the case due to me providing much detailed evidence, and the inspector telling me they will review CCTV footage to ensure I was not lying or acting in a malicious way.

Many thanks, and I look forward to your responses.
 
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MikeWh

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I'm not sure what might be happening, but I do have some questions.

1) What happened when you touched out at Finsbury Park? Did the fare get deducted correctly?
2) Why do you use paper tickets the other way?
3) What is the season ticket for if you use a zip card and/or paper single tickets?
 

some bloke

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I think NSVX may be talking about a split journey.

They have six months to "lay the information" at the court - see s.127(1) - and then it could be some time afterwards that you get a summons. Normally people get a letter first asking their story, and normally it's significantly earlier than six months.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/127
 

furlong

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I read 'other direction' as meaning 'North from the origin' rather than South.
 

MikeWh

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I read 'other direction' as meaning 'North from the origin' rather than South.
I thought that, but they mention other direction twice. I just want to be clear what's happening before commenting fully.
 

furlong

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Barriers should not have been left unattended like that.

Were you handed any paperwork? If so, what did it say? If not, what sort of notes did the inspector make? Were you asked to write or sign anything?

Did the inspector scan your card, as well as make a note of the details? Were you asked to confirm your address and is it still the same as the one the card is registered to?
 

packermac

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Barriers should not have been left unattended like that.

Were you handed any paperwork? If so, what did it say? If not, what sort of notes did the inspector make? Were you asked to write or sign anything?

Did the inspector scan your card, as well as make a note of the details? Were you asked to confirm your address and is it still the same as the one the card is registered to?
It is not that unusual for barriers to be left unattended is it? Maybe staff are just in a near by office but when I lived in London this seemed to be a regular occurrence. I do agree however it should not happen.
 

jumble

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Hi all, I have a question that I would like to pose in search of an answer to something that has been playing on my mind in recent time.

around 2-3 months ago, I boarded a GN Train at New Barnet intending to delight the train at Finsbury Park. I tapped my Zip Card at the barrier as I am under 16, for the barrier not to work. I knew the reason for this was because the gates at this particular station operate with a child lock turned on, meaning the barriers did not open. The balance on my Oyster was that above £20, meaning I of course had sufficient funds to start as well as finish my journey. As the gates did not open, and the train had just arrived, I opened one of the side metal gates which are intended for use when the platform is busy, but I felt as if this was justified with there being no station staff on site and therefore no other means on boarding the train in time.

After being on the train for a few minutes, a ticket inspector came along, and of course asked me to produce my valid travel authority, which after I explained to him that the gates were not working, he proceeded to issue me with a penalty fare. I told him I did not have any cash on me, nor a card, as I believed I already had the appropriate 'ticket' for travel, so would not be requiring any money on my person. This was the truth, I also do not tend to carry cash on me unless in specific circumstance as I have been mugged of my possessions before.

He said the notice would appeal in the post in 14 days, in which I accepted and informed him an appeal would be lodged. I was fully compliant as well as polite, explained the circumstances well, showed him the 50+ tickets I had on me at the time due to the fact I use the service daily in the other direction, in order to prove I am a fully paying customer looking for no trouble. I also had my season monthly ticket on me going in the other direction, adding more proof that I am a frequent passenger who pays their fares without exception.

However many months on, I still have not received any notice in the post, so could somebody advise me on what the situation is, whether or not I can expect any communication, or whether they may have dropped the case due to me providing much detailed evidence, and the inspector telling me they will review CCTV footage to ensure I was not lying or acting in a malicious way.

Many thanks, and I look forward to your responses.

Since as I understand it the TOCs are reluctant to prosecute under 18 year olds for fare evasion and you are under 16 I would hope you will never hear any more
 

NSVX

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Hi there, thanks for everyone's responses.

The inspector scanned my card but as my Oyster had not been validated at the machine as it had not worked due to the child lock as I previously mentioned, the Oyster did not effectively know the journey had begun, so when the inspector scanned my Oyster it appeared as if the Oyster hadn't been validated but did have over £20 on it.

I questioned the inspector but he was simply rude and shrugged. I did make a complaint about him also for which I received an apology, but they would not say anything on whether they would push ahead with the notice.
 
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NSVX

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I'm not sure what might be happening, but I do have some questions.

1) What happened when you touched out at Finsbury Park? Did the fare get deducted correctly?
2) Why do you use paper tickets the other way?
3) What is the season ticket for if you use a zip card and/or paper single tickets?
So I use paper tickets the other way as Oyster card technology does not go out to my station Brookmans Park, only contactles for use with phones or bank cards. Nothing happened at FPK as the inspector gave me a slip of paper allowing the 1 way journey.
The season ticket I use is for BPK to NBA, but on this occasion I was travelling southbound from NBA going into town, which is why I used my zip card, as I have a paper ticket for the other way.
 

NSVX

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It is not that unusual for barriers to be left unattended is it? Maybe staff are just in a near by office but when I lived in London this seemed to be a regular occurrence. I do agree however it should not happen.
There is an office at New Barnet station but it was not being manned at this time which is poor, so surely the child lock should have been disengaged from the gate. If not they were simply preventing a fully paying customer from using the applicable service.
 

NSVX

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Barriers should not have been left unattended like that.

Were you handed any paperwork? If so, what did it say? If not, what sort of notes did the inspector make? Were you asked to write or sign anything?

Did the inspector scan your card, as well as make a note of the details? Were you asked to confirm your address and is it still the same as the one the card is registered to?

The paper work I was handed simply entitled me to complete 1 single return journey. He took down my address which I was fully complaint in giving, as well as the name of my mother.

I reminded him of my right to be informed of my mistake he thought I had made, what he is taking my details for, and how to make an appeal. I also pressed further questions towards him regarding the companies employees and ensuring GDPR regulation is adhered to. He initially wrote down my details, then threw it in the bin as he made a spelling error on my name, and I told him disposing a piece of paper that has sensitive data such as my DOB, Residence, and birth place, is most certainly a violation of GDPR, as it amounts to irresponsibly handling customer data. I made a complaint about this to GTR in which I received a response after around 60 days. This in itself is once again violating data protection and regulation, as they did not respond to a legitimate question regarding the handling of user data in a suitable time frame (30 days).

After sending GTR an email listing the potential offences I believe they may themselves have commited, as well as the irresponsibility of the inspector, they apologised and went quite. Seemed as if the threat of court action against them stopped things for a while.

As I said, it has now been around 3 months since the incident occurred, and was wondering if they have some kind of statute of limitations or a set period of time to bring something against me.

Many thanks.
 

furlong

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So - could anybody explain how this "child lock" actually works? If it causes the gate not to open and the start of a journey not to be recorded, how does having a member of staff physically present change that behaviour and record the start of the journey on the card?
 

some bloke

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he proceeded to issue me with a penalty fare.
The paper work I was handed simply entitled me to complete 1 single return journey.
That sounds like he didn't give you the paperwork for a penalty fare, which would say how to pay it.
wondering if they have some kind of statute of limitations or a set period of time to bring something against me.
Yes.
They have six months to "lay the information" at the court - see s.127(1) - and then it could be some time afterwards that you get a summons. Normally people get a letter first asking their story, and normally it's significantly earlier than six months.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/127
You could write to them and say something like,

"In view of the acknowledged failures, I consider it an appropriate courtesy for GN to confirm that no further action will be taken in respect of any criminal allegation in this matter".
 

some bloke

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You could enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare and ask them to confirm that the matter is now closed in respect of any criminal or civil liability.
 

MikeWh

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So - could anybody explain how this "child lock" actually works? If it causes the gate not to open and the start of a journey not to be recorded, how does having a member of staff physically present change that behaviour and record the start of the journey on the card?
This is one of my concerns. My understanding is that gates in the Oyster area should not be set to reject child tickets unless there is a separate reader that children can be directed to to touch in. If the gates were unmanned then that is a very unsatisfactory situation.
 

MikeWh

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So I use paper tickets the other way as Oyster card technology does not go out to my station Brookmans Park, only contactles for use with phones or bank cards. Nothing happened at FPK as the inspector gave me a slip of paper allowing the 1 way journey.
The season ticket I use is for BPK to NBA, but on this occasion I was travelling southbound from NBA going into town, which is why I used my zip card, as I have a paper ticket for the other way.
So just to confirm my understanding. You travel daily from Brookmans Park to New Barnet using a season ticket. Sometimes you then go to Finsbury Park using the zip card before returning home with a paper ticket to New Barnet and your season so you don't have to get off the train to touch out.
 

NSVX

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This is one of my concerns. My understanding is that gates in the Oyster area should not be set to reject child tickets unless there is a separate reader that children can be directed to to touch in. If the gates were unmanned then that is a very unsatisfactory situation.
Yes exactly my belief
 

NSVX

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So just to confirm my understanding. You travel daily from Brookmans Park to New Barnet using a season ticket. Sometimes you then go to Finsbury Park using the zip card before returning home with a paper ticket to New Barnet and your season so you don't have to get off the train to touch out.
I travel daily from BPK to NBA. On this occasion I finished school which is in New Barbet, and was heading into London for a meeting. My intention was to use Oyster until at NBA until I tap out at FPK, then on my return, tap in at FPK, jump off the train, tap out at NBA, and hop back onto the train, then travelling on my season ticket return between BPK and NBA. Hope this makes sense.
 

MikeWh

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I travel daily from BPK to NBA. On this occasion I finished school which is in New Barbet, and was heading into London for a meeting. My intention was to use Oyster until at NBA until I tap out at FPK, then on my return, tap in at FPK, jump off the train, tap out at NBA, and hop back onto the train, then travelling on my season ticket return between BPK and NBA. Hope this makes sense.
Well it does, but what were the paper tickets you showed, or were they just a collection of seasons?
 

NSVX

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Well it does, but what were the paper tickets you showed, or were they just a collection of seasons?
A collection of seasons to prove I travel and pay frequently, and many paper tickets singles etc for occasions where I bought those not a season
 

MikeWh

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I've raised the gate issue with GTRs PR department.
I've received a response. It all boils down to using the help point to attract the attention of the staff on the other platform.
GTR said:
If the child lock is on and the customer needs to validate the zip card, the staff member can turn the lock off and ask the customer to retry. This will validate the card.
 

some bloke

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Would you say that's an adequate reply? I'm not familiar enough with the location and prominence of help points. Also, does it cover enough reasonably foreseeable eventualities?
 

MikeWh

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Would you say that's an adequate reply? I'm not familiar enough with the location and prominence of help points. Also, does it cover enough reasonably foreseeable eventualities?
I need to be careful what I say. I was surprised by that reply.
 

some bloke

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Perhaps like me you have in mind that safety and other issues related to leaving closed gates unattended might extend further than child locks.
 

Haywain

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Would you say that's an adequate reply? I'm not familiar enough with the location and prominence of help points. Also, does it cover enough reasonably foreseeable eventualities?
Where two gatelines are operated by one member of staff, in the GTR style, there are help points immediately adjacent to the gateline which carry appropriate instructions on them. These are not the same as the general style of help points found on platforms that invariably connect to NRE.
 

Brissle Girl

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No comment on the merits of the case, but there have been a few cases on here where people (typically the younger generation) have been travelling without any means of payment (I recall one case of someone driving from Derby to Cheltenham and having to return unexpectedly by train) and this has caused a problem.

It does surprise me that there is presumably a mindset that nothing untoward is going to happen between leaving the house and returning that would necessitate needing to pay for something.

I couldn’t imagine going further than the end of the road without some cash or a card, let alone venture into London or undertake a 200 mile return car journey.
 
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