Help! The Dark Art of The Routeing Guide and "ANY PERMITTED"

Hi all,

tl;dr - Can I use this ticket to travel from Barbican Tube to Woking (or even better, Guildford)? Purchased by my company through thetrainline.


...

My job involves reading plenty of technically worded documents but none as ambiguous as The Routeing Guide!

I'm posting mainly to answer a specific question but also out of curiosity and hopefully to help others in a similar situation.

I'm trying to understand the definition of "ANY PERMITTED".

From the routeing guide

Instructions (Section A):

If the fare for the journey shows no route or is described as "Any Permitted", a customer may use any of the routes listed in the Guide, subject to any time and/or operator restrictions that apply to the ticket held.

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Yes.

STEP 1
Use Section B (the “pink pages”) to find the routeing point(s) relating to the origin station. A
station may be a routeing point in its own right, or it may be a “related station” and have
routeing point(s) associated with it.

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London Group Routing Point

STEP 2
Use Section B (the “pink pages”) to find the routeing point(s) relating to the destination station. A station may be a routeing point in its own right, or it may have routeing point(s) associated with it.

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Didcot Parkway Routing Point

STEP 3
Common Routeing Points
If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains short of the routeing point, unless an easement allows a longer alternative route.

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Right... So that's that then. Only permitted route is via Reading routing group.


But hold on...
According to Permitted Route Identifier (Section C, the "Yellow Pages") the permitted routes from London Group to Didcot Parkway are via routes BL and WX+BL

Route WX has two main "branches" that split off at Clapham Junction.

One of these goes to Woking (just next to Guildford). The other goes to Reading.

So now I'm confused. I think my first question is:

• In Step 3 (above) is a "permitted route" defined as the literal route between London and Didcot Parkway (via Reading) or is it defined as via any of the stations on the permitted route(s) - Thus making my ticket valid?

I also note that the instructions also state:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

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So it CAN be used on a route which IS listed in the routing guide for which a LOWER priced route specific fare exists?

Which makes my second question:

• If the WX route IS permitted and I am now making a shorter and cheaper journey albeit along a branch that doesn't go to Didcot Parkway AND I'm not intending to use my ticket again once I leave at Woking: Does that make it valid?

Finally as stated above:

It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

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• Does this mean it will even extend to Guildford as London to Guildford is also cheaper?

In all honesty, I have no problem in paying the £15 odd for a new ticket but it's partly the principle of the ambiguity of the documentation and partly because I'm genuinely interested (and pretty pedantic!).

Thanks all for your time.

Rich.

You have to be able to trace the entire route from origin routeing point to destination routeing point on the maps. Woking is a dead end; you can't trace any further on map WX and map BL doesn't have a node at Woking so you can't change on to it. So you can't go to Woking. When using WX+BL as far as I can see the only option is to go via Ascot to Reading and change onto BL at Reading.

Wow, what a swift reply. Thank you very much.

Re: Step 3:-

Your origin is London Routeing Point Group which is a routeing point in it's own right ( and so has no associated routeing points.)

Your destination is Didcot which is also a routeing point in it's own right ( and so has no associated routeing points.)

Your origin and destination therefore have no routeing points in common - that means you can use the mapped routes on the maps/map combinations given in the yellow pages.

Re: interpreting the mapped routes:-

Mapped routes are all routes traceable on maps BL and WX+BL between London Group and Didcot which don't pass through any station twice. (subject to any negative easements but I don't think there are any relevant easements in this case.)

If the WX route IS permitted and I am now making a shorter and cheaper journey albeit along a branch that doesn't go to Didcot Parkway AND I'm not intending to use my ticket again once I leave at Woking: Does that make it valid?

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You can use map BL or map combination WX+BL (for the latter you'd need to use both maps traversing at least one link on WX and then at least one on BL.)

You can't go to Woking - although Woking appears on map WX there's no route you can trace continuing from there through to Didcot on WX+BL that doesn't pass through the same station twice. [Edit : as per @Indigo2 above]

JB_B said:

Your origin is London Routeing Point Group which is a routeing point in it's own right ( and so has no associated routeing points.)

Your destination is Didcot which is also a routeing point in it's own right ( and so has no associated routeing points.)

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As noted above, you have to travel via Reading. There are however two routes to Reading, the fast route from Paddington and the slow route from Waterloo. I don't think your ticket is valid out of Waterloo any further than where the line from Waterloo to Reading diverges from the line from Waterloo to Woking.

@richt83 just to add that if you are interested in learning more about the dark arts of the routeing guide )) you are very welcome to join us at a free fares workshop (drinks & nibbles included)

MarlowDonkey said:

As noted above, you have to travel via Reading. There are however two routes to Reading, the fast route from Paddington and the slow route from Waterloo. I don't think your ticket is valid out of Waterloo any further than where the line from Waterloo to Reading diverges from the line from Waterloo to Woking.

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So one could use that ticket to travel in the slow train from Waterloo to Virginia Water and buy a new £5.70 ticket from there to Woking?

I think that I have maybe mentioned this before but a friend who used to work for ATOC told me that only one man fully understood the routing guide and when he retires all will be lost!
I think that I understand the working of it but -
With modern computers a system such as Google maps can give a range of alternative routes in seconds via all modes of transport; it must be possible for the routing guide to be set up on a similar basis, so that all vaiid routes can be visible to all passengers and staff at a glance without wading through the intricacies of numerous maps.

Bookd said:

With modern computers a system such as Google maps can give a range of alternative routes in seconds via all modes of transport; it must be possible for the routing guide to be set up on a similar basis, so that all vaiid routes can be visible to all passengers and staff at a glance without wading through the intricacies of numerous maps.

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Particularly for Season Tickets, a map showing the area of validity would surely be useful. It might also facilitate map based pricing for season tickets. I believe it was noted that a ticket Earley to London Terminals was valid via Reading and Paddington. It ought then to be the same price as a ticket from Reading, valid to both Paddington and Waterloo.

Bookd said:

I think that I have maybe mentioned this before but a friend who used to work for ATOC told me that only one man fully understood the routing guide and when he retires all will be lost!
I think that I understand the working of it but -
With modern computers a system such as Google maps can give a range of alternative routes in seconds via all modes of transport; it must be possible for the routing guide to be set up on a similar basis, so that all vaiid routes can be visible to all passengers and staff at a glance without wading through the intricacies of numerous maps.

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It is available electronically in so much as if you can get a ticketing website to give you an itinerary then it's valid. The problem is different sites sometimes interpret the rather complex data differently and the electronic data sometimes contradicts the written data.

Bookd said:

... -
With modern computers a system such as Google maps can give a range of alternative routes in seconds via all modes of transport; it must be possible for the routing guide to be set up on a similar basis, so that all vaiid routes can be visible to all passengers and staff at a glance without wading through the intricacies of numerous maps.

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It already is! It's possible to see if a particular itinerary is valid instantly. Booking systems all have access to this electronic data.

It's also possible to see the range of routes on maps generated instantly but this just isn't widely available (if it was, several of the routes would end up being culled pretty quickly)

yorkie said:

It already is! It's possible to see if a particular itinerary is valid instantly. Booking systems all have access to this electronic data.

It's also possible to see the range of routes on maps generated instantly but this just isn't widely available (if it was, several of the routes would end up being culled pretty quickly)

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Of course, not sure if the William's Review will have a big shake up of the permitted route system.