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Motorway driving habits.

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The Ham

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Moderator note: the first few posts of this thread were split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-abandonment-of-smart-motorways.194331 and joined up with this thread, as per:

I thought it was probably worth splitting the discussion away from this one about smart motorways:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-abandonment-of-smart-motorways.194331/unread

I’m sure that we’ve all seen plenty of appalling driving on our motorway system, but what do you do to keep safe?
(With the proviso that it’s not always up to you when something goes wrong)



I feel for you there. I drive regularly on a motorway with no lighting. In open country, it is pitch black and scary, especially in the winter months and if there is mist or rain.

Most of my motorway driving is done on motorways with no street lighting, whilst it's different to driving where it's lit it's not any more of a challenge and certainly a lot easier than driving on other rural roads with no street lights.

The "scary" roads are those where the cats eye and white lines haven't been maintained, in those cases you just drive more slowly than during the day, so as to drive to the conditions. Especially when there's rain and mist.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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Most of my motorway driving is done on motorways with no street lighting, whilst it's different to driving where it's lit it's not any more of a challenge and certainly a lot easier than driving on other rural roads with no street lights.

The "scary" roads are those where the cats eye and white lines haven't been maintained, in those cases you just drive more slowly than during the day, so as to drive to the conditions. Especially when there's rain and mist.

Indeed.
 

The Ham

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I believe they just prosecute it as Driving Without Due Care and Attention, or Dangerous Driving, depending on whether they feel they can prove it was done through incompetence/ignorance or wilful stupidity. Same way as they will get you if you use a hands-free phone such that you're not in proper control of your vehicle.

Whilst that's true having a specific role with penalty would highlight the issue and mean that it was better understood by the wider population.

For instance the case of middle lane driving, there was a lot of ours about it coming in and people seemed to behave better for a time (until they realised that they could probably get away with it).
 

Meerkat

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And as I said, actual bunching only occurs when people are committing the offence of Driving Without Due Care and Attention, and that needs prosecuting more often. Tailgating is unacceptable. End of. Don't do it. Three points and two hundred quid every time if the cameras could detect it and it'd soon stop. A stream of cars driving at a given speed with safe separation is not "bunching" and poses no danger.

Tailgating is generally caused by poor lane discipline - prosecute them first (they are usually the people we need off the roads anyway!)
So 80 is more dangerous than 70 but reducing the spacing to minimum isn’t? Bunching is less safe even if people are two seconds apart.

Did you actually read what I said? You would not need to use the brakes, you simply ease off the accelerator slightly to lose one or two miles per hour off your speed.
Decelerating without brake lights is even more dangerous

Put your right indicator on and somebody will soon enough let you out
Not on busy motorways in my experience.

average speed cameras are a nightmare because you can’t blip by to create a safer bubble

We are never going to agree though.
I just see strict enforcement of non urban speed limits as un-English. We have laws, and we have enforcement, and when done by humans the enforcement is more “don’t be a dick” than black and white on arbitrary rules.
Serving alcohol to drunk people is illegal. Imagine if they suddenly decided to enforce that and arbitrarily decided that 3 pints was drunk.....
 

Bletchleyite

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Tailgating is generally caused by poor lane discipline - prosecute them first (they are usually the people we need off the roads anyway!)

Tailgating is caused by people driving too close to the car in front. It is not acceptable regardless of what the other vehicle is doing. You must keep a safe distance at all times - and someone driving erratically is all the more reason to do so.

I would agree with prosecutions for poor lane discipline, but I suspect, because I leave decent spacing, you probably consider that I have poor lane discipline. I don't sit in lane 2/3 all the time, but I will not pull in if it would cause me to end up at an unnecessarily tight spacing.

So 80 is more dangerous than 70 but reducing the spacing to minimum isn’t? Bunching is less safe even if people are two seconds apart.

The longer the gap the safer it is, but on a busy motorway driving faster will not necessarily give you this.

Decelerating without brake lights is even more dangerous

I do see that point, however I am talking about lightly lifting off, which is fine if the car behind is maintaining proper spacing.

Not on busy motorways in my experience.

I find it does.

average speed cameras are a nightmare because you can’t blip by to create a safer bubble

Blip by what? If you overspeed for 5 seconds, just underspeed for another 5 - sorted.

I just see strict enforcement of non urban speed limits as un-English

I'd agree with you if people were sensible and just did 80, and I wouldn't even object to the smart motorway cameras being set to 80-85 when NSL is showing. I do however feel that people doing 90+ are dangerous. Their reactions may be able to cope with it, but not everybody's can - and invariably they tailgate and duck in and out as well which IS dangerous and unacceptable at any speed.

If you want to do 100mph+ on land, there's a mode of transport designed to do that safely that is the main subject of this forum! :D
 

ashkeba

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Tailgating is generally caused by poor lane discipline - prosecute them first (they are usually the people we need off the roads anyway!)
No, speeders and tailgaters first, please. No matter what lane you feel the driver in front should be using, it is not a valid defence against reckless driving like tailgating. This should be a really easy one to detect and enforce on smart motorways, but the English are a joke for criminally bad motorway driving like the Belgians are for failing to give way at junctions, the Italians for horning and shouting or New Yorkers suck at parking legally. Did not some English comedian do a routine about "honest, fine, upstanding, law-abiding English citizens who don't want to pay their speeding fines"? And English people laughed and I am not sure all thought it was satire!
 

Bletchleyite

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No, speeders and tailgaters first, please. No matter what lane you feel the driver in front should be using, it is not a valid defence against reckless driving like tailgating. This should be a really easy one to detect and enforce on smart motorways, but the English are a joke for criminally bad motorway driving like the Belgians are for failing to give way at junctions, the Italians for horning and shouting or New Yorkers suck at parking legally. Did not some English comedian do a routine about "honest, fine, upstanding, law-abiding English citizens who don't want to pay their speeding fines"?

I certainly agree on tailgating. It is aggression, and there is no room whatsoever for aggression when carrying out a safety-critical activity such as road use. A much better attitude, even if you want to drive fast, is to drive defensively - sit back, slow down and laugh to yourself at the other driver's incompetence, then when they eventually get out of the way overtake safely and continue at your chosen speed.

Flash your lights at the absolute most ("to let them know you are there" - that's a legal use), but stay well back until they move over.
 

Geezertronic

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Cruise control (non adaptive) is great on the motorway, providing you don't get people overtake, pull back in, then slow down, then speed back up when you move to overtake them again (which is a frequent occurrence for me, particularly in 50mph roadworks)
 

The Ham

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On the fact that 70 is safer than 80 point, because of the speeds and the distances traveled in reaction times a car traveling at 80 will still be going quite fast (IIRC >30) by the time a car doing 70 has stopped.

What's more telling is that by the time a car doing 70 is going at a speed that is likely to result in damage only (say 10) or light cuts and bruises, a car doing 80 would be traveling at such a speed that it's likely cause significant harm if not death.
 

Bletchleyite

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Cruise control (non adaptive) is great on the motorway, providing you don't get people overtake, pull back in, then slow down, then speed back up when you move to overtake them again (which is a frequent occurrence for me, particularly in 50mph roadworks)

I find that grossly annoying even though I don't have cruise control of any kind!
 

Meerkat

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The longer the gap the safer it is, but on a busy motorway driving faster will not necessarily give you this.

so anything causing bunching, such as speed cameras are dangerous (on the basis marginal increases in speed are dangerous...)
How do people know you want to overtake if you don’t close up (not Audi close!)? Flashing lights is way more aggressive. I liked the German habit of indicating, but they have strangely banned that.

Blip by what? If you overspeed for 5 seconds, just underspeed for another 5 - sorted.

Overtake then slowdown in front of the overtakee? That is infuriating for them, and who really knows how much and how long they need to slow down for?

I'd agree with you if people were sensible and just did 80, and I wouldn't even object to the smart motorway cameras being set to 80-85 when NSL is showing. I do however feel that people doing 90+ are dangerous. Their reactions may be able to cope with it, but not everybody's can - and invariably they tailgate and duck in and out as well which IS dangerous and unacceptable at any speed.

I only want the speed limit increased because of the camera enforcement. Other circumstances the 70 limit gives a cut and dried ticket the police can give someone who is doing 80 whilst driving incompetently/aggressively (which is harder to prosecute).
On a long journey in a modern car 70mph is ridiculously and mindnumbingly slow. On a four lane M25 at night it feels glacial!
 

Bletchleyite

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so anything causing bunching, such as speed cameras are dangerous (on the basis marginal increases in speed are dangerous...)
How do people know you want to overtake if you don’t close up (not Audi close!)? Flashing lights is way more aggressive.

Why does anyone need to know that you want to overtake? They should move left when it is safe to do so regardless of your presence. Your presence is therefore irrelevant to them. I ignore any vehicle behind until I have completed my manoeuvre in a safe manner the same as if it was not there.

I liked the German habit of indicating, but they have strangely banned that.

What's that, precisely?

Overtake then slowdown in front of the overtakee? That is infuriating for them, and who really knows how much and how long they need to slow down for?

On a motorway you do not need to speed to overtake. If you are overtaking an erratic driver they do eventually slow down.

The only situation where "accelerating out of trouble" of a misjudged overtake makes sense is on a single carriageway. There is no need to exceed the speed limit to overtake on a dual carriageway or a motorway. If you need to exceed it you should not overtake.

On a long journey in a modern car 70mph is ridiculously and mindnumbingly slow. On a four lane M25 at night it feels glacial!

You'll need to get used to it for environmental if not safety reasons. Though I would support an increase to 80mph (with strict enforcement) in dry weather only, which would be in line with the French and Italian limits.
 

bramling

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Why does anyone need to know that you want to overtake? They should move left when it is safe to do so regardless of your presence. Your presence is therefore irrelevant to them. I ignore any vehicle behind until I have completed my manoeuvre in a safe manner the same as if it was not there.



What's that, precisely?



On a motorway you do not need to speed to overtake. If you are overtaking an erratic driver they do eventually slow down.

The only situation where "accelerating out of trouble" of a misjudged overtake makes sense is on a single carriageway. There is no need to exceed the speed limit to overtake on a dual carriageway or a motorway. If you need to exceed it you should not overtake.



You'll need to get used to it for environmental if not safety reasons. Though I would support an increase to 80mph (with strict enforcement) in dry weather only, which would be in line with the French and Italian limits.

It’s bad practice to sit alongside someone whether on a single carriageway or motorway. If you go to overtake someone who then speeds up (which inexplicably some people do seem to do) then it really is best to shoot forward and leave the problem person behind. If they’re already driving erratically then chances are they may suddenly catch up to someone in their middle lane, or fail to anticipate a truck moving from lane 1 to 2, and you suddenly find they move to the right directly into your path.

It’s not really ideal to then be having to think about slowing down again for any kind of camera, as guess what the erratic vehicle that you tried to get rid of is now alongside you again...

All in an evening’s drive home on a home-counties motorway. Why is it that driving standards are so much better up north?
 

Bletchleyite

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All in an evening’s drive home on a home-counties motorway. Why is it that driving standards are so much better up north?

Because it's less crowded? And because peoples' attitudes are less aggressive? (OT observation: except when boarding overcrowded TPE services where anything is fair game, even crawling under your arm as you alight to get on first - in comparison Bank in the evening rush hour is a picture of civility).
 

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Bletchleyite

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Drive defensively (assume everyone else is grossly incompetent and will make bad decisions). Keep as much distance as possible. Don't get wound up, just humour bad drivers.
 

Meerkat

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Why does anyone need to know that you want to overtake? They should move left when it is safe to do so regardless of your presence. Your presence is therefore irrelevant to them. I ignore any vehicle behind until I have completed my manoeuvre in a safe manner the same as if it was not there

Because if I know someone wants to overtake I am happy to drop in a smaller gap and easy off briefly before pulling out behind them. Better than holding someone up.
I don’t want to do that and find I am trapped by someone doing 0.5mph more than me, who was actually happy to sit behind me.
The faster Germans used to indicate left to show they wished to overtake (ie we would indicate right)
For some reason this was deemed aggressive and banned (though it is far less necessary there where the lane discipline is a thing of wonder to British eyes!)

The only situation where "accelerating out of trouble" of a misjudged overtake makes sense is on a single carriageway. There is no need to exceed the speed limit to overtake on a dual carriageway or a motorway. If you need to exceed it you should not overtake.
Overtaking is a time of heightened risk, it is better to reduce that risk by doing it quickly. Dawdling along in someone’s blind spot or spray is unnecessarily dangerous.
Even on a single carriageway it is better to break the limit, get past, and slow down rather than spend longer on the wrong side of the road just to obey an arbitrary speed limit.
 

Bletchleyite

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The faster Germans used to indicate left to show they wished to overtake (ie we would indicate right)
For some reason this was deemed aggressive and banned (though it is far less necessary there where the lane discipline is a thing of wonder to British eyes!)

Can you give a reference to a law stating it is banned?

Overtaking is a time of heightened risk, it is better to reduce that risk by doing it quickly. Dawdling along in someone’s blind spot or spray is unnecessarily dangerous.
Even on a single carriageway it is better to break the limit, get past, and slow down rather than spend longer on the wrong side of the road just to obey an arbitrary speed limit.

I suspect we simply are not going to agree here :)
 

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Yep. Time to put yourself in Adaptive Cruise Control guys...
 

Cowley

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Drive defensively (assume everyone else is grossly incompetent and will make bad decisions). Keep as much distance as possible. Don't get wound up, just humour bad drivers.
Pretty much how I see things @Bletchleyite. But I’d also add: Leave your ego on the hook that holds your car keys as you leave the house.
We all make mistakes and that I always say to myself is “you’re not the perfect driver. Just do your best and be aware that you sometimes make mistakes”.
 

telstarbox

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Seeing the bigger picture, for example:
If you're only on the motorway for one or two junctions, easier to stay in lane 1 than working out to the fast lane and back in;
Anticipating traffic joining from a busy slip road and preparing to move into lane 2 to give them room where appropriate.

"Roadcraft" is a great book with lots of advice on driving strategically and safely.
 

EssexGonzo

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I’m sure that we’ve all seen plenty of appalling driving on our motorway system, but what do you do to keep safe?
(With the proviso that it’s not always up to you when something goes wrong)

Well, since you ask........

Completely agree with all - drive defensively as if everyone else is an idiot. Rule no. 1 when riding a motorcycle too.

Also.....speed up or slow down to get away from the idiots. Leave the aggressive overtakers and ego-centrics to their own thing.

On a 4-lane motorway - keep to the inside 2 lanes. Those with 4 lanes are nearly always smart motorways with always-on cameras anyway - so pootling along at 65 to 70 is fine. The idiots tend to stick to and bunch up in the outside 2 lanes and then throw out the anchor when they see a camera.

Undertake carefully. Especially as many, many idiots tend to cling to lane 3. I'm not sure of the legality but I don't swerve or race - I do this when a sleeping idiot in lane 3 is building a queue behind them. I'll always observe for a few seconds looking for signs that they may pull in and then nail the accelerator to get safely past before they wake up.

Don't worry about the speed. 450+ miles return journeys to see family are frequent for me. In the old days, one may have clung to the outside lane at 90. Once I'd calmed down about 20 years ago and begun to stick to 75 indicated, not only was I much more relaxed but it only cost me a few minutes in extra journey time. Saved some money on fuel too.

Use the gadgets. Years ago I would have never admitted this but adaptive cruise control, Apple CarPlay (for Spotify) and lane keep assist are now among my favourite things. Whilst I'm still in control, a 4.5 hour, traffic-heavy journey is now so much easier to cope with. Bring on autonomous cars!

Waze. A game changer. Way better than factory systems and I've learned to trust it when it tells me to turn off.

And....a 50+ year old bladder! Stopping more frequently started off as a nuisance. Now it's essential but has the by-product of breaking up the journey.
 

Ianno87

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Pretty much how I see things @Bletchleyite. But I’d also add: Leave your ego on the hook that holds your car keys as you leave the house.
We all make mistakes and that I always say to myself is “you’re not the perfect driver. Just do your best and be aware that you sometimes make mistakes”.

1) Worry about what *you* are doing. Not anybody else.

2) It's not a race. If someone else budges you out of that gap, it really doesn't matter (anybody who thinks it does matter needs to get a life).

3) Some people shouldn't be out on the road. Learn to accept that but recognise you are not perfect yourself and as prone to mistakes and bad judgements as anybody else is.
 

Bletchleyite

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1) Worry about what *you* are doing. Not anybody else.

No, no, no, a million times no. You need to be aware of what is going on around you and making space to accommodate other peoples' errors safely and with good grace. That's the heart of defensive driving.

"Here lies @Ianno87 - he had the right of way".

Also be helpful to others - for instance if someone is overtaking you, once they've fully pulled out (and NOT before unless you like being rear-ended) lift off and let them pass quickly and safely, it'll cost you a second or two on your journey. I loved that old Honda advert - "aren't we all just trying to get somewhere?"
 

Domh245

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Also be helpful to others - for instance if someone is overtaking you, once they've fully pulled out (and NOT before unless you like being rear-ended) lift off and let them pass quickly and safely, it'll cost you a second or two on your journey. I loved that old Honda advert - "aren't we all just trying to get somewhere?"

Very much this - whilst it's good to assume that everyone else on the road is an idiot, it doesn't hurt to occasionally assume competence and try to preempt them. One of my 'favourite' ways of doing this is moving from (eg) lane 2 to lane 3 if I can see somebody in lane 1 just ahead that is approaching a slower moving vehicle so that they can overtake safely without having to lift off whilst I overtake them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Very much this - whilst it's good to assume that everyone else on the road is an idiot, it doesn't hurt to occasionally assume competence and try to preempt them. One of my 'favourite' ways of doing this is moving from (eg) lane 2 to lane 3 if I can see somebody in lane 1 just ahead that is approaching a slower moving vehicle so that they can overtake safely without having to lift off whilst I overtake them.

Yes, I do that too, even more so if they put their indicator on. (I know it's meant to be Mirror Signal Manoeuvre, but on the motorway it can help flow if you actually do Mirror Signal Mirror Manoeuvre with the second "mirror" being waiting for others to accommodate your desired manoeuvre if there isn't space to do it straight away).

The other thing I like to do is to move to lane 2 to pass someone on the hard shoulder if the motorway isn't busy. There is no point screaming past someone at 70 about a foot from their ear if it can be easily avoided. Anyone who has ever stopped on the hard shoulder will know how scary it is, no point making it worse. What I really dislike is people who undertake me while doing this when lane 3 is empty - really, really dangerous.

FWIW, smart motorways (how's that for a bit of thread crossover) tend, for a stopped vehicle, to close two lanes rather than just the one they're in, backing that up somewhat.
 

bramling

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1) Worry about what *you* are doing. Not anybody else.

This just doesn't wash in reality.

Somewhere along the line you *are* going to have to compensate for someone else's bad driving and/or error in order to avoid an accident. Far better to anticipate that error which makes compensating for it much easier, and most importantly more likely to be successful at avoiding that accident.

Do you cross using a pedestrian crossing without worrying about what vehicles are doing?

recognise you are not perfect yourself and as prone to mistakes and bad judgements as anybody else is.

One can, however, reduce the chance of making a mistake.

Simple things like making sure the vehicle is properly maintained before setting off, taking steps to plan the route in advance, and avoiding distractions during the journey (for example switching any mobile phones off, not having the radio too loud, not having screaming kids in the back, et cetera).
 

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On non-smart motorways, I think that there should be a minimum speed limit of 60mph. That way cars and small commercials keep out of the way of 56mph HGVs. It was over 20 years ago, when I was driving in Germany and HGVs were banned from overtaking on uphill stretches of motorways. Nothing is worse than one HGV limited to 56 mph overtaking another one with a 55.9 mph limiter and blocking the middle lane.
I can't remember but was there a minimum speed limit on the autobahns?
 
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