What should have happened (in 2009!)

Hi,

Just wondering what should have happened to me in this case, as I read not having your railcard is OK for first offence?

I travelled from Ormskirk to Malvern Link, changing at Liverpool Central -> Liverpool Lime Street and Birmingham New Street. I had a young person's railcard (as was) which was a 5 year one supplied through Natwest (updated yearly).

I stupidly forgot to change my railcard over once the new one came.

I bought a ticket at the staffed office at Ormskirk, and showed railcard. This was not challenged. I then transferred from Central to Lime Street - again showed railcard at gate and not challenged. At BHM, I had a long change so popped up to the concourse for some Millie's cookies (these would soon become the most expensive cookies ever!). When going back through barrier, I was challenged and showed railcard (which was about 2 or 3 weeks out of date). My discounted ticket was taken off me and I had to buy a new return ticket Ormskirk -> Malvern Link (no small matter as a student).

Wondering after reading various stories here, whether that was normal practice? As my railcard was accepted in error when buying ticket, does that shift the blame?

No. You could have been prosecuted, or where relevant charged a Penalty Fare (I think Merseyrail had them in 2009 at least). So having to purchase a new ticket is a more than reasonable use of discretion.

You could have purchased a new single and had someone post the Railcard on, but as that'd probably be 10p different in price there'd be no point.

Bletchleyite said:

No. You could have been prosecuted, or where relevant charged a Penalty Fare (I think Merseyrail had them in 2009 at least). So having to purchase a new ticket is a more than reasonable use of discretion.

You could have purchased a new single and had someone post the Railcard on, but as that'd probably be 10p different in price there'd be no point.

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Thanks for the reply. It still seems I was punished though as I paid 1 2/3 ticket price effectively. I thought nowadays you could show that you did have a railcard but forgot it and you could get the full price ticket refunded? Or am I dreaming?

You're right about the situation now. It's since 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...railcard-once-without-being-charged-a-fortune

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/469772179-2017-03-21.html

some bloke said:

You're right about the situation now. It's since 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...railcard-once-without-being-charged-a-fortune

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/469772179-2017-03-21.html

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Ahh thanks puts my mind at rest

Pumperkin said:

As my railcard was accepted in error when buying ticket, does that shift the blame?

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Does blame only exist in one direction? You made an error on a number of occasions, and a couple of members of staff made an error once each.

Haywain said:

Does blame only exist in one direction? You made an error on a number of occasions, and a couple of members of staff made an error once each.

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I suppose so. I would have hoped that once a qualified person (who is actually paid to check the validity) says it's OK then this could lessen my culpability. I can understand the Liverpool ticket barrier as it is a bit of a rush, but Ormskirk is hardly a busy station and they have time to check these things properly. Had it have been seen, I would have just toddled back and got the right one (and probably delayed myself no more than an hour). As it was, it cost me another £50 odd quid IIRC. I know which I'd have preferred!

Pumperkin said:

Thanks for the reply. It still seems I was punished though as I paid 1 2/3 ticket price effectively. I thought nowadays you could show that you did have a railcard but forgot it and you could get the full price ticket refunded? Or am I dreaming?

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But you hadn't forgotten your railcard. You didn't have one!

6Gman said:

But you hadn't forgotten your railcard. You didn't have one!

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Yes he did! New Railcards were sent each year, he'd just forgotten to swap his card over.

MikeWh said:

Yes he did! New Railcards were sent each year, he'd just forgotten to swap his card over.

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Ah right.

Pumperkin said:

I suppose so. I would have hoped that once a qualified person (who is actually paid to check the validity) says it's OK then this could lessen my culpability. I can understand the Liverpool ticket barrier as it is a bit of a rush, but Ormskirk is hardly a busy station and they have time to check these things properly. Had it have been seen, I would have just toddled back and got the right one (and probably delayed myself no more than an hour). As it was, it cost me another £50 odd quid IIRC. I know which I'd have preferred!

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There is absolutely no argument here at all. You travelled without a valid ticket and were charged the appropriate fare. The guard was even kind enough to sell you a return when they were only obliged to sell you a single! How generous!

If you went into a bank and withdrew money when your account had low balance, and then were charged an overdraft fee for doing so, would you consider it the bank's fault for not warning you that you had no money? Or is it on you to keep track of these things?

Intermodal said:

The guard was even kind enough to sell you a return when they were only obliged to sell you a single! How generous!

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Just a note - it wasn't the guard, it was a ticket checker at the barrier.

Intermodal said:

If you went into a bank and withdrew money when your account had low balance, and then were charged an overdraft fee for doing so, would you consider it the bank's fault for not warning you that you had no money? Or is it on you to keep track of these things?

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While your sentiment is one many will agree with, this is a very revealing comparison.

New rules coming into force in a few weeks time actually are aimed at ensuring that banks are proactively managing their customers who are overdrawn to ensure that they have all of the information they need and to keep on reminding them that they need to change. When I was overdrawn, I'd get regular reminders from my bank about the need to make a deposit, with some suggested amounts and timescales.

The banks will also be much more restricted in the fees that they're allowed to charge consumers who go overdrawn by mistake in the future. In some cases banks won't be permitted to charge any fees at all.

Sorry!

Intermodal said:

.....was even kind enough to sell you a return when they were only obliged to sell you a single! How generous!

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Genuine question... is it "generous" to sell the exact same ticket (albeit without railcard discount) to the one I already had? Clearly I wasn't trying to avoid the fare and this kind of thing only creates animosity between the general public and the ticket sellers. If I was in a shop and managed somehow to buy the wrong thing, and needed to return it, would it be "generous" of the cashier to sell me the right thing at the correct price, or just common decency?

Pumperkin said:

Genuine question... is it "generous" to sell the exact same ticket (albeit without railcard discount) to the one I already had? Clearly I wasn't trying to avoid the fare and this kind of thing only creates animosity between the general public and the ticket sellers. If I was in a shop and managed somehow to buy the wrong thing, and needed to return it, would it be "generous" of the cashier to sell me the right thing at the correct price, or just common decency?

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Neither.
If you buy an incorrect item in a shop then they are not required to exchange or credit it. That is only required if the item is faulty.
Lots of retailers will not exchange items.

In this case, given they purchased a new full priced ticket, the old one could have been submitted for a refund, minus a £10 administration fee.

The railcard should have been withdrawn but not the ticket.