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South Wales 'Metro' updates

Cardiff123

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So pay for parking at the station, pay for the train and take more time ?
Using more petrol, emitting more pollution taking the D tour to the station or park and ride?

Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?
Who says P&R's and station parking won't be free? And yes, taking a detour and avoiding the city centre, which is the whole point of these proposed measures. Birmingham and Bristol have all proposed similar if not more stringent measures recently.

I challenge you to walk down Albany Road, Crwys Rd or City Rd in Cardiff at peak travel time and then please tell me how on earth you think the bumper to bumper traffic and toxic fumes on those roads is sustainable?
People's habits and lifestyles need to change. It could take me 15-20 minutes to drive into Cardiff city centre from my home, but I have to accept getting up earlier and adding more time onto my day for the 15 minute walk to the train station and the 15 minute journey on the train into the city centre. Yes public transport takes longer but it has benefits on people's health and for the environment.
Carrying on as we are with rising traffic levels is simply not an option.
I'll gladly welcome any alternative options you can suggest that are proven to work for reducing car usage and pollution in city centres.
You cannot compare London and Cardiff either.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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So pay for parking at the station, pay for the train and take more time ?
Using more petrol, emitting more pollution taking the D tour to the station or park and ride?

Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

Parking at P&Rs are free, it just costs the ticket of the train or bus. Compared to paying for car parking, the costs are then pretty comparable. Most people who use them are those traveling from outside the city so, as long as they're situated on the main routes in/out, no detour is needed.
 

Tom Quinne

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Exactly as long as their on the route anyway.

How many are, will be though?
The ideal world is very different to the real one the majority of us live in.
 

Tom Quinne

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Who says P&R's and station parking won't be free? And yes, taking a detour and avoiding the city centre, which is the whole point of these proposed measures. Birmingham and Bristol have all proposed similar if not more stringent measures recently.

I challenge you to walk down Albany Road, Crwys Rd or City Rd in Cardiff at peak travel time and then please tell me how on earth you think the bumper to bumper traffic and toxic fumes on those roads is sustainable?
People's habits and lifestyles need to change. It could take me 15-20 minutes to drive into Cardiff city centre from my home, but I have to accept getting up earlier and adding more time onto my day for the 15 minute walk to the train station and the 15 minute journey on the train into the city centre. Yes public transport takes longer but it has benefits on people's health and for the environment.
Carrying on as we are with rising traffic levels is simply not an option.
I'll gladly welcome any alternative options you can suggest that are proven to work for reducing car usage and pollution in city centres.
You cannot compare London and Cardiff either.

Why not ?

Both capital cities, with large dormitory commuter areas on the outskirts.

Expanding at a huge rate both population and commuting wise, congestion and pollution raising.

No realistic way of combating it, congestion charging hasn’t work in London - why should it work in Cardiff?

Oyster and contactless has made public transport so cheap it’s a no brainer but to use it, but people still drive in as it’s not convenient.

Cardiff East and West - along the Railway is poorly served, unless you have more bus lanes (which add to congestion) the bus just becomes part of the problem.
 

Phil from Mon

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They use their car..

I explained that London still has congestion and pollution regardless of their vehicle taxes, why do you think Cardiff is any different?

Most of the London congestion is due to deliveries, and to the proliferation of Uber and similar. People in London don’t think twice about using public transport, and not one of my London friends owns a car, if they need one for a weekend away they will hire one.
 

Tom Quinne

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So the M25, North Circular are fully of Ubers and Amazon vans ? Maybe we should ban internet shopping, but that would add to inner city congestion as all those people will flock to malls every weekend.
 

Cardiff123

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Why not ?

Both capital cities, with large dormitory commuter areas on the outskirts.

Expanding at a huge rate both population and commuting wise, congestion and pollution raising.

No realistic way of combating it, congestion charging hasn’t work in London - why should it work in Cardiff?

Oyster and contactless has made public transport so cheap it’s a no brainer but to use it, but people still drive in as it’s not convenient.

Cardiff East and West - along the Railway is poorly served, unless you have more bus lanes (which add to congestion) the bus just becomes part of the problem.
How can you possibly say public transport in and around London is not convenient?
Of course it's not door to door but it's not meant to be.
 

Brissle Girl

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So the M25, North Circular are fully of Ubers and Amazon vans ? Maybe we should ban internet shopping, but that would add to inner city congestion as all those people will flock to malls every weekend.
The M25 is not the inner conurbation area which we are debating here, so I’m not sure of it’s relevance. The majority of traffic on the M25 is avoiding London and I don’t think the Underground, London buses or park and ride schemes will have any impact on its traffic levels. Still, back to Cardiff, you’re clearly not convinced so I wonder if it’s time for us all to agree to disagree and move on?
 

daodao

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A few days ago, I happened to stop by the new Plasdwr development marketing place - which was closed. Anyway, I met in the car park a man & wife who were prospective buyers and we got talking. Turned out that they worked at Heath Hospital. I pointed out that it would be a very difficult journey via congested Llandaff to get from Plasdwr to work at the hospital.

Rush hour traffic congestion through Llandaff and along Western Avenue is nothing new. I recall in late summer 1984 when I moved to Cardiff to take up a post at the Heath Hospital considering buying a property on the (then new) Danescourt development (before the City Line existed). I became aware of rush hour delays in crossing the River Taff as I had temporary accommodation in Canton, so decided instead to buy a flat near Whitchurch station, which was closer to the hospital. While I did use my car when living in Cardiff, I also made extensive use of the relatively good public transport that existed then in what is a major city, and also walked for many local journeys, including to work. By contrast, public transport where I now live is virtually useless, apart from Metrolink, and my commute (exclusively by car) is much longer.
 
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Cardiff123

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51573051

Local stations around Cardiff have seen the biggest increases in passengers in all of Wales. It's worth looking at the table in the article, City Line stations have seen the biggest increases of all.

Railway passenger growth reaches 11-year high
The number of passengers using railway stations in Wales has grown by the largest amount in more than a decade.

More than 57.4m people used stations in Wales in 2018-19, up 9.4% from 52.5m the previous year, the largest rise since 2007-08.

Much of the growth occurred in the area surrounding Cardiff, with valleys and suburban stations seeing large rises.

Swansea, Bangor and Rhyl stations were among the 20 busiest, but increases were modest compared to the south east.
The figures, released by the Welsh Government, measure the number of entries and exits to railway stations over a 12-month period between April 2018 and March 2019.
Cardiff Central was the busiest station in the country, with 14,204,684 entries and exits, a rise of more than 1.2 million compared with the previous year.

But the greatest rise in passengers was on lines around the capital.

Of the 10 stations that saw the largest growth, seven were within Cardiff county, and the other three were on lines travelling into the capital.

Away from the capital region, changes have not been so marked.

Swansea station, the fourth busiest in the country, saw growth of 2.1%, up to 2.2 million last year.

Elsewhere in the south west, Llanelli station saw numbers drop by 0.2% and Carmarthen by 7.8%.

In mid Wales, overall passengers on the Cambrian main line dropped by 4.6%, with the number going through Aberystwyth station falling by 7.6% to 309,816.

In the north of the country, Bangor and Rhyl were among the 20 busiest, ranking 15th and 19th respectively, but growth was just 0.8% in Bangor and numbers fell by a handful of passengers in Rhyl.

Numbers increased modestly elsewhere, by 2.2% on the North Wales Coast Line, 2.6% on the Conwy Valley Line, and 3.8% on the Borderlands Line

Steve Fletcher, a commuter and the founder of the Arriva Trains Failed Wales Facebook page, said: "It surprises me that so many people are using rail, knowing how bad it is. It probably reflects even worse on all other forms of transport.

"The rail is getting no better. It went through an appalling service level in December and January time. I have put in no end of claims. It really surprises me that people continue to use it.

"It's very difficult to tell when you're used to being face-to-face with people every day. It's just different levels of discomfort.

"You notice more people left behind in the station now who are just unable to get on to the train in the mornings.

"It's the lesser of all the evils. It's the least worst rather than the best."

Transport for Wales (TfW) said it was "encouraged" to see more people using the rail network and was embarking on an £800m investment programme.

"More trains will be arriving later in the year, which will allow us to withdraw our oldest trains which will mean more seats on our trains," a spokesperson added.

"We also have exciting plans to build the South Wales Metro plus more reliable and more frequent trains.

"In December, we introduced an additional 294 Sunday services and by December 2023, we are going to run an extra 285 services every weekday."

However figures suggest some new trains on the Rhymney line's Bargoed and Penarth routes will have less capacity
 
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Cardiff123

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Do the moderators think that this BBC news story is worth a separate thread as it refers to the entire Wales network not just the ’Metro’?
It does refer to all of Wales so it can be posted elsewhere if needed, but I posted it here as the stations that have seen the biggest increases are in the Cardiff and Valleys future 'Metro' area so that will obviously have implications for the Metro plans.
 

Llandudno

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It does refer to all of Wales so it can be posted elsewhere if needed, but I posted it here as the stations that have seen the biggest increases are in the Cardiff and Valleys future 'Metro' area so that will obviously have implications for the Metro plans.
Yes, I appreciate that but the BBC article refers to all of Wales including reference to 7% drop at Aberystwyth and 2.6% increase on the Conwy Valley Line - not bad considering that it has been closed for huge chunks of the year!
 

Cardiff123

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Yes, I appreciate that but the BBC article refers to all of Wales including reference to 7% drop at Aberystwyth and 2.6% increase on the Conwy Valley Line - not bad considering that it has been closed for huge chunks of the year!
Ok well obviously you are welcome to start a new thread in General Discussion if you want to.
 

S-Bahn

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Article confirms what we knew already.
Demand for services in and out of Central and Queen St is increasing and TFW don't have the rolling stock to cope, particularly due to the lack of 769's.
Fortunately, the arrival of the GWR IETs, Turbo's and HST Castles has provided a big increase in capacity on the Cardiff-Bristol corridor, but TFW are going to need 4 car 150's and 769's for the core valley lines, and soon.
 

Cardiff123

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This article also poses the Q whether the new replacement Metro trains for 2022/23 are sufficient, esp the tram-trains for the Core Valleys via Pontypridd.

The Metro Vehicles for use via Pontypridd are only the same length as a 2 car 150. If all of the City Line stoppers are going to be down Aberdare and up Merthyr trains, they will have to run metro vehicles doubled up for these services or there just won't be the capacity for City Line passengers.
 

S-Bahn

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This article also poses the Q whether the new replacement Metro trains for 2022/23 are sufficient, esp the tram-trains for the Core Valleys via Pontypridd.

The Metro Vehicles for use via Pontypridd are only the same length as a 2 car 150. If all of the City Line stoppers are going to be down Aberdare and up Merthyr trains, they will have to run metro vehicles doubled up for these services or there just won't be the capacity for City Line passengers.

Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.
 

duffield

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...
Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

I don't think anyone expected these issues to actually go away with the congestion charge, surely the important question is how much *worse* these issues would be by now if the congestion charge did not exist? (Difficult to quantify of course, you can do surveys on the lines of 'Would you start driving in the zone if the charge was abolished, but the answers may not reflect would people would actually do in practice).
 

Cardiff123

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Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.
The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.
 

S-Bahn

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The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.

I concur.
 

Brissle Girl

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Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.

It’s been noted several times that the plan is indeed for every other service to have doubled up trams.
 

S-Bahn

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It’s been noted several times that the plan is indeed for every other service to have doubled up trams.

And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
 

krus_aragon

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And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
Hopefully, with increased passenger numbers / farebox revenue helping the case for buying even more stock.
 

Brissle Girl

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And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
I’m not sure how you expect anyone to know the answer to that, but it would clearly be an option. To make all services double would increase the fleet size by around a third, so clearly a significant cost whether done now or in the future.
 

Dr Day

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A big difference between Pacers and trams is the amount of standing space per linear metre of vehicle. The new trams may have all seats taken by around Treforrest, but won't necessarily be 'full' by any stretch. We will see, but I think there could be a while before all the capacity (including standing) is exhausted and more doubling-up is needed.

I'm no expert in vehicle procurement, but I'm sure most manufacturers would have a clause that incentivises additional orders at a lower per unit price, as long as they still have the factory set up.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.

That's true but in 'glass half full' mode isn't the agreement between TfW and Keolis-Amey more of a contractor arrangement than a 'set in stone' franchise deal? Presumably, improvments in frequency can be introduced if TfW is willing to meet the cost.
 

Cardiff123

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That's true but in 'glass half full' mode isn't the agreement between TfW and Keolis-Amey more of a contractor arrangement than a 'set in stone' franchise deal? Presumably, improvments in frequency can be introduced if TfW is willing to meet the cost.
Yes, I read in Modern Railways at the franchise award/launch that TfW / Keolis Amey can procure more trams / trains throughout the franchise if needed
 

edwin_m

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I'm no expert in vehicle procurement, but I'm sure most manufacturers would have a clause that incentivises additional orders at a lower per unit price, as long as they still have the factory set up.

Yes, I read in Modern Railways at the franchise award/launch that TfW / Keolis Amey can procure more trams / trains throughout the franchise if needed

Yes, it's typical for rolling stock order to include "options" for extra vehicles of the same design at a guaranteed price, although limited to a certain period after the main order and subject to adjustments for factors such as inflation and exchange rates. This is good for the manufacturer because they can sell more without the cost of developing a new design and bidding for contracts, and good for the operator because they get more of a proven design, again without the costly and time-consuming open procurement process that might land them with an incompatible micro-fleet. It also incentivizes suppliers to provide a good product, because if performance is poor the client probably won't take up the option.
 

Envoy

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Sounds from what is being said here that users of the City Line will be worse off than they are now with the Pacers - which simply loop around the city suburbs. If the people of Cardiff are expected to get on a rammed Tram-train going to/from the valleys & be lucky to get a seat, they simply won’t bother and will use the car or the bus.
 

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