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Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

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samuelmorris

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All the important stuff is already underway. By the time the merger is likely to have had any impact, the bulk of Aventra orders will have been completed. With bimode orders firmly going in Stadler and Hitachi's direction at the moment and TfL having finally gone elsewhere, any further business going Bombardier's way was already pretty unlikely. It's only when Crossrail 2 comes around that Alstom are likely to be in the picture for UK stock orders.
 

F Great Eastern

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With talk of the EMR not allowing the 360s to be kept on for any longer, a deal not agreed to extend the 379s as it stands, GA really need the 720s to suffer no further delays.

This is further going to be compounded by the fact it looks like bins are going to need to cover for 745s which are not ready on the Intercity services which look highly unlikely to all be in service for Easter, which apparently means they are now looking at as late as July for the airport units, which may mean 317s need to be stolen from elsewhere to cover the 745s not ready and the departed 379s.

Either they are going to have to hope that everthing else goes according to plan, which seems very unlikely, or those spare 321a that might be going around later in the year from other operators, should be snapped up as contingency. Otherwise we could be in for a serious summer of misery. This has the potential to go even more wrong than the last 4-5 months.
 
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samuelmorris

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With talk of the EMR not allowing the 360s to be kept on for any longer, a deal not agreed to extend the 379s as it stands, GA really need the 720s to suffer no further delays.

This is further going to be compounded by the fact it looks like bins are going to need to cover for 745s which are not ready on the Intercity services which look highly unlikely to all be in service for Easter, which apparently means they are now looking at as late as July for the airport units, which may mean 317s need to be stolen from elsewhere to cover the 745s not ready and the departed 379s.

Either they are going to have to hope that everthing else goes according to plan, which seems very unlikely, or those spare 321a that might be going around later in the year from other operators, should be snapped up as contingency. Otherwise we could be in for a serious summer of misery. This has the potential to go even more wrong than the last 4-5 months.

Depends. In terms of service impact on PPM I disagree, most services will still run. What is most likely to happen, however, is that a large number (potentially all) peak services dropped from 12 to 8-car. By the time the 360s have left, most of the Norwich 745s should be in service so there should only need to be one or two services routinely running with 321s, much as now. StanEx will be run with 317s, possibly with some ex-LO 317s drafted in to work the displaced Cambridge services if some LO 710s are ready by the time the 379 lease ends (I can't remember when that is). In terms of overcrowding it'll be pretty hellish, but let's face it, we all knew this was coming! :)
 

F Great Eastern

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Depends. In terms of service impact on PPM I disagree, most services will still run. What is most likely to happen, however, is that a large number (potentially all) peak services dropped from 12 to 8-car. By the time the 360s have left, most of the Norwich 745s should be in service so there should only need to be one or two services routinely running with 321s, much as now. StanEx will be run with 317s, possibly with some ex-LO 317s drafted in to work the displaced Cambridge services if some LO 710s are ready by the time the 379 lease ends (I can't remember when that is). In terms of overcrowding it'll be pretty hellish, but let's face it, we all knew this was coming! :)

GA extended the 379s until the end of July, same as the 360s.

Agree that most likely we'll see 8 car services the norm and few if any 12 car services. Going to see some 4 car services at peak time I would say as well since if they're specified as 8 cars then a short form will leave 4 and they're unlikely to have a huge amount of stock laying around.
 

RailWonderer

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Why is there an assumption the 379s will leave just because the lease ends in July? No other ToC has leased them so far, they’ll be needed by GA. That said I don’t trust GA management, they’ve been horribly incompetent and ill informed of operations. The 360s can’t leave in July or the GEML will slowly crumble with a cake ton of short forms. EMR will suffer way less with delayed 360s than GA will without them. Logic doesn’t always apply in railwayland and a lease is a lease and a bid team miscalculation is a miscalculation. They banked on everything running smoothly and cake PR all over every press release to cover it up. Smear it with a smile seems to be their approach.

Also @samuelmorris the 720s cannot run Clacton because several diagrams split/join from 12 to 8 to 4 to 8 to 12 and have been built around a 4/8/12 railway.
Another major misjudgement by the bid team. Why change to a 5/10 railway and create problems for yourself as a ToC that are unnecessary?
 

Shunter_69

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The diagrams will have to be rewritten as there will only be 720’s in the long term. My assumption is the current trains that split/join will still do so but will be 2x5 rather than a 4 and an 8.
 

hwl

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Why is there an assumption the 379s will leave just because the lease ends in July? No other ToC has leased them so far, they’ll be needed by GA. That said I don’t trust GA management, they’ve been horribly incompetent and ill informed of operations. The 360s can’t leave in July or the GEML will slowly crumble with a cake ton of short forms. EMR will suffer way less with delayed 360s than GA will without them. Logic doesn’t always apply in railwayland and a lease is a lease and a bid team miscalculation is a miscalculation. They banked on everything running smoothly and cake PR all over every press release to cover it up. Smear it with a smile seems to be their approach.

Also @samuelmorris the 720s cannot run Clacton because several diagrams split/join from 12 to 8 to 4 to 8 to 12 and have been built around a 4/8/12 railway.
Another major misjudgement by the bid team. Why change to a 5/10 railway and create problems for yourself as a ToC that are unnecessary?
Because 5/10car @24m is far cheaper to purchase and run?
 

samuelmorris

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Why is there an assumption the 379s will leave just because the lease ends in July? No other ToC has leased them so far, they’ll be needed by GA. That said I don’t trust GA management, they’ve been horribly incompetent and ill informed of operations. The 360s can’t leave in July or the GEML will slowly crumble with a cake ton of short forms. EMR will suffer way less with delayed 360s than GA will without them. Logic doesn’t always apply in railwayland and a lease is a lease and a bid team miscalculation is a miscalculation. They banked on everything running smoothly and cake PR all over every press release to cover it up. Smear it with a smile seems to be their approach.

Also @samuelmorris the 720s cannot run Clacton because several diagrams split/join from 12 to 8 to 4 to 8 to 12 and have been built around a 4/8/12 railway.
Another major misjudgement by the bid team. Why change to a 5/10 railway and create problems for yourself as a ToC that are unnecessary?
The 720s will be running Clacton when deployed. Diagrams will need to be modified as they go where necessary due to replacement of exactly that sort of splitting/joining arrangement. My comments about 720/1s running off-peak Clacton services only applied to when the fleet was deployed. I agree that the most complex diagrams, logically, would stick to legacy units the longest for that reason, but that's not necessarily how things pan out in practice. If the relevant drivers are trained first, or GA management want to make more of an impression in that area than another, they'll go there earlier, and no doubt there'll be some rostering issues along the way.

Having 5-car and 10-car stock rather than 4/8/12 isn't itself a problem, just that transitioning from one to the other is a lot of work.

Quite right that the 360 and 379 leases may yet be extended again, but you can't assume that they will.
 

RailWonderer

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Because 5/10car @24m is far cheaper to purchase and run?
Do you have cost quotes? Train lengths are equivalent and seating is increased in the new Aventras.
Also knowing of Bombardier’s problems Siemens would’ve been a far wiser choice, build quality wise as well. But too late. Having similar trains as LO and TfL feels like a major cheap out. How specific was the DfT directive?
 

samuelmorris

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Do you have cost quotes? Train lengths are equivalent and seating is increased in the new Aventras.
Also knowing of Bombardier’s problems Siemens would’ve been a far wiser choice, build quality wise as well. But too late. Having similar trains as LO and TfL feels like a major cheap out. How specific was the DfT directive?
Seats don't cost much. Cabs and all the associated gear certainly do, as does having an extra transformer and pantograph, not to mention less work for drivers moving individual units around, joining them up etc.
 

43096

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The 360s can’t leave in July or the GEML will slowly crumble with a cake ton of short forms. EMR will suffer way less with delayed 360s than GA will without them. Logic doesn’t always apply in railwayland and a lease is a lease and a bid team miscalculation is a miscalculation.
So, assuming that Corby electrification is complete by December, you reckon DfT and Abellio will suffer the embarrassment of not having any trains for it? I don’t - my money would be on the 360s moving regardless and GA having to cop the flack for short forms. Keeps the problem in one place on a TOC that is already suffering negative PR.

EMR will arguably suffer as much as GA - 360s are needed to remove the HSTs whose PRM dispensation runs out at the end of the year. Extending that makes it a double embarrassment for DfT - would they do it or not?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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samuelmorris

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So, assuming that Corby electrification is complete by December, you reckon DfT and Abellio will suffer the embarrassment of not having any trains for it? I don’t - my money would be on the 360s moving regardless and GA having to cop the flack for short forms. Keeps the problem in one place on a TOC that is already suffering negative PR.

EMR will arguably suffer as much as GA - 360s are needed to remove the HSTs whose PRM dispensation runs out at the end of the year. Extending that makes it a double embarrassment for DfT - would they do it or not?
I suspect it's possible we may have a similar scenario to when the LO 172s moved to West Midlands, a short extension but eventually enough is enough and they'll go regardless, especially if the DfT don't extend the PRM dispensation. Presumably there will still be other TOCs who fail to meet the 2020 deadline?
 

hwl

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Seats don't cost much. Cabs and all the associated gear certainly do, as does having an extra transformer and pantograph, not to mention less work for drivers moving individual units around, joining them up etc.
And 4 fewer bogies.
Bombardier are the only manufacturers who can get decent power traction motors in inside frame bogies hence all inside frame bogies enabling another 15-20tonne weight saving on 240m set.

As the train is now very light and more energy efficient the number of traction motors and sets of traction electronics can be significantly reduced for the same performance providing more cost and weight savings and less equipment to maintain! (a 240m Anglia Aventra unit has 2 boxes of traction electronics less than an 12car 700)
As traction energy usage is now "metered"substantial cost savings in operating costs. And the lighter train weight helps reduce the track access charges.

In winning the Thameslink Contract Siemens then had desiro city design that was uncompetitive and inflexible for future orders
 

hwl

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The current 379 lessors Marquarie have off loaded there rail leasing business to Akiem today https://www.akiem.com/en/press-rele...e-europe-rails-rolling-stock-leasing-business and given the 379's are a fair chunk of the assets they must have a long term home.
Or Macquarie wanted an exit. They bought most of it from Lloyds TSB's rail leasing who probably sold it at discount to downsize the bank in hurry after buying HBoS by mistake. The 66s are the big asset not the 379s!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I suspect it's possible we may have a similar scenario to when the LO 172s moved to West Midlands, a short extension but eventually enough is enough and they'll go regardless, especially if the DfT don't extend the PRM dispensation. Presumably there will still be other TOCs who fail to meet the 2020 deadline?
DofT will extend the deadline and SoS will spin another whinge at the industry in not getting its act together otherwise they risk a much bigger backlash from commuters. They can clearly demonstrate to the disability community that the trains are being built rather than an hollow promise.
 

306024

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.......As traction energy usage is now "metered"substantial cost savings in operating costs. And the lighter train weight helps reduce the track access charges......

This is the bit many outside the industry wouldn't necessarily be aware of. Electric current usage and variable track access do form a sizeable chunk of a TOC like GA’s costs, as well as mileage related train maintenance.

It is for that reason GA have quite a bit of off peak splitting and attaching, it’s not just for fun, and is really a throwback to the National Express days where every penny was counted. And you would only change the diagrams as you need to otherwise it is just money down the drain.

Of course with a 5/10 car fleet the diagrams are being re-written, which should inevitably make the operation simpler with less opportunities for splitting and attaching.
 

RailWonderer

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Seats don't cost much. Cabs and all the associated gear certainly do, as does having an extra transformer and pantograph, not to mention less work for drivers moving individual units around, joining them up etc.
Of course, 5 and 10 is simpler, as long as they manage the transition properly. Electronics are cheaper and 4 coaches are too short for most services anyway so the lengths aren't a problem in the long term.
One change that irks me is the Southend will be upped from 3 to 4 tph. Do we really need another path on the south GEML? The line is busy enough already, it regularly experiences slow running and congestion. Hopefully this is silently axed.
 

samuelmorris

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Of course, 5 and 10 is simpler, as long as they manage the transition properly. Electronics are cheaper and 4 coaches are too short for most services anyway so the lengths aren't a problem in the long term.
One change that irks me is the Southend will be upped from 3 to 4 tph. Do we really need another path on the south GEML? The line is busy enough already, it regularly experiences slow running and congestion. Hopefully this is silently axed.
You wouldn't be saying that if you were a user of the line. I believe the idea is to bring it to parity with c2c which has 4tph to Southend. Off-peak the number of paths isn't quite as severe as it is during the peaks where Southend gets 6tph and as far as I know that isn't changing. Whether the 4tph to Southend even happens is up in the air though as apart from the new stock, pretty much every franchise commitment made by GA has either been ignored or scrapped, so I'll believe it when I see it.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder that this thread is a Traction & Rolling stock discussion regarding Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else (e.g. timetabling matters, ideas/suggestions or anything else), please create a new thread in the appropriate forum section to discuss that topic (or use an existing thread, if there is one already)

Thanks :)
 

F Great Eastern

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You wouldn't be saying that if you were a user of the line. I believe the idea is to bring it to parity with c2c which has 4tph to Southend. Off-peak the number of paths isn't quite as severe as it is during the peaks where Southend gets 6tph and as far as I know that isn't changing. Whether the 4tph to Southend even happens is up in the air though as apart from the new stock, pretty much every franchise commitment made by GA has either been ignored or scrapped, so I'll believe it when I see it.

Delete, forget it, as it's not related to the topic at hand and I've been told not to post it.
 
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Railperf

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Be good to see what the Class 720's are capable of performance wise. Does anyone know their projected power to weight ratio and how that compares to a Class 345?
The 90mph 345's can do 0 to 80mph in just under a minute. So it will be a huge step up if the 100mph 720's can get to 100mph in 1.5 to 2 minutes compared to the 321's which take around 4.5 to 5 mins. The potential for journey time savings is significant once all the new trains are in service. Currently too many stopping services relying on the pedestrian 321's. Services diagrammed for the faster 360's are still handicapped by very slow class 321 based timings.
 

samuelmorris

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Be good to see what the Class 720's are capable of performance wise. Does anyone know their projected power to weight ratio and how that compares to a Class 345?
The 90mph 345's can do 0 to 80mph in just under a minute. So it will be a huge step up if the 100mph 720's can get to 100mph in 1.5 to 2 minutes compared to the 321's which take around 4.5 to 5 mins. The potential for journey time savings is significant once all the new trains are in service. Currently too many stopping services relying on the pedestrian 321's. Services diagrammed for the faster 360's are still handicapped by very slow class 321 based timings.
What's the best recording for a 700? Wikipedia gives the weight of a 345 at 264t, not sure if that's a 7 or 9-car but given the reference is from 2012 I'll assume it refers to Crossrail itself therefore a 9-car. If we add 20% for the extra length and then maybe another 10% on top for the extra seats, carpet, toilets etc we come out at around 350t, compared with a 700 at 410t for 240m. Like the 700s, the 720s will apparently have 50% powered axles, though I seem to recall Aventras using 225kW traction motors versus Siemens' 250s, so 85% the weight, 90% the power?
 

Railperf

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But dwell times are longer for Class 360s than Class 321s
I have examined a number of schedules and i do not see any differences. Please give me some examples of where some 360 schedules are quicker than 321's and any differences in dwells. Happy to be corrected if i have missed something . Performance wise a 360 will be at least 30 seconds quicker than a 321 due to the superior acceleration every time. And going forward the 720's will probably be quicker still. I had a 755/4 in pouring wet conditions and suffering wheelslip at 70 mph causing power reduction - managing to post one of the fastest times between Colchester and Manningtree - despite those conditions. Sub 7 mins - where both 321's and 360's are currently allowed 8 mins plus station dwell! A 360 in the dry will also post a sub 7 minute time! If the 720's have 50% axles powered and similar performance to the 345's they will probably do Colchester Manningtree in 6 minutes despite the gradients. And accelerate most station to station timings.
 

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