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Broken down train between Stockport and Manchester Picc, 19th Feb 2020

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py_megapixel

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Looking at RTT it seems that almost every departure from Stockport between about 1500 and 1615 yesterday was significantly delayed. Northern on Twitter seems to attribute this to a broken down train.

Any ideas what unit was affected, and what the fault was?
 
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Llama

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Could it have been 2N66, 1203 Hazel Grove to Blackpool which sat down on P4 at Stockport and and was still there til about 4pm, pan down and shut down? 2N66 is booked 1x 3-car 331. I've no idea what the supposed problem was.
 

tomwills98

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Could it have been 2N66, 1203 Hazel Grove to Blackpool which sat down on P4 at Stockport and and was still there til about 4pm, pan down and shut down? 2N66 is booked 1x 3-car 331. I've no idea what the supposed problem was.

That's the one. Auto Dropping Device fault which explains why it was pan down
 

Llama

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An ADD activation shouldn't have made it immovable unless the pan was actually damaged. Even then in that case the unit used for driver conversion training is based on Stockport CS, it was out and about yesterday morning but only did half its diagram, so surely that unit could've been used to drag/shift the failed set from P4 sooner than the nearly four hours it was sat there?
 

Melancholia

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An ADD activation shouldn't have made it immovable unless the pan was actually damaged.

If ADD is activated, how does a driver check for pantograph damage, as they cannot safely access the roof? Could be damage that's not really visible when standing platform level next to the train, especially if the pan has dropped down.
 

Llama

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Only visually by checking the carbons or listening for an air leak. Checking is easier said than done when the pan is down, although the unit made it ok into the platform at Stockport so the ADD activation likely happened on the approach or in the platform.
 

plugwash

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Unfortunately while stockport has 5 platforms, afaict none of them are set up for bi-directional operation. So a breakdown on a northbound service will cause far more disruption than a breakdown on a southbound service.
 

LAX54

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and an ADD will also involve a 20mph ESR for all (electric) trains until the OHL has been examined in the area the ADD activated.
 

craigybagel

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Unfortunately while stockport has 5 platforms, afaict none of them are set up for bi-directional operation. So a breakdown on a northbound service will cause far more disruption than a breakdown on a southbound service.

Correct - other then the bay of course

and an ADD will also involve a 20mph ESR for all (electric) trains until the OHL has been examined in the area the ADD activated.

Speed limit through platform 4 is only 15mph anyway.
 

Greybeard33

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Correct - other then the bay of course
The signalling at Stockport permits reversals back towards Manchester from Platform 1 as well as from the bay Platform 3A. But through trains cannot be signalled into Platform 1 from the south, so it is not fully bidirectional.

Passenger services from the south have to use P3 or P4. If either is blocked, disruption is inevitable.
 

py_megapixel

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The signalling at Stockport permits reversals back towards Manchester from Platform 1 as well as from the bay Platform 3A. But through trains cannot be signalled into Platform 1 from the south, so it is not fully bidirectional.

Passenger services from the south have to use P3 or P4. If either is blocked, disruption is inevitable.

Incidentally, how long is bay 3A? Could it take, for example a 6-car 323 or a 4-car 150 if they needed to terminate a train short for whatever reason?
 

plugwash

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Looking at the google satellite photo (which conviniently has a pendolino in platform 2 for scale) it seems to be a bit over 4 pendolino cars long. So going by that, it should take a 319 or a double 150 no problem but not a triple 150 and certainly not a double 323. I suspect this is one of the reasons that platform 1 is signaled for reversals.

However as far as I can tell, a train stuck in platform 1 for a while is not really that big a deal, since most trains that normally use platform 1 can be diverted to platform 0.

What I do find puzzling is why there is no direct route for southbound trains to enter the maintinance depot, instead they must reverse in the station, then reverse again on the viaduct.
 

CHAPS2034

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Looking at the google satellite photo (which conviniently has a pendolino in platform 2 for scale) it seems to be a bit over 4 pendolino cars long. So going by that, it should take a 319 or a double 150 no problem but not a triple 150 and certainly not a double 323. I suspect this is one of the reasons that platform 1 is signaled for reversals.

However as far as I can tell, a train stuck in platform 1 for a while is not really that big a deal, since most trains that normally use platform 1 can be diverted to platform 0.

What I do find puzzling is why there is no direct route for southbound trains to enter the maintinance depot, instead they must reverse in the station, then reverse again on the viaduct.

Trains going north from P1 are usually going to the depot and therefore cross all lines. Most of these moves are in the late evening. There is no access to the depot from the south as there is a main access road to the station there which would have to be crossed on the level. In addition the land rises quickly to the south of the station.

Yesterday (Sat 22nd) there was a block on the down fast from Edgeley No1 Jct through P3. When I passed through Stockport at approx 1330 I didn't see any of the orange army around or any stranded train, so I don't know what caused it. My local from Crewe was delayed by about 10 minutes as everything was routed onto the down slow and P4. Block seems to have started about 1230 and finished about 2230. Didn't seem to cause much delay to any individual train however. Anyone know what was going on?
 

Llama

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Incidentally, how long is bay 3A? Could it take, for example a 6-car 323 or a 4-car 150 if they needed to terminate a train short for whatever reason?
4-car 150 yes, but not a 6-car 331. However platform 1 could be used for the longer train to lay over before turning back northwards with platforms 0 and 2 used. Would still probably cause some disruption though not as bad as if platform 4 was tied up.
 

py_megapixel

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4-car 150 yes, but not a 6-car 331. However platform 1 could be used for the longer train to lay over before turning back northwards with platforms 0 and 2 used. Would still probably cause some disruption though not as bad as if platform 4 was tied up.
I'm sure I read somewhere that P0 effectively just branches off from the line serving P1 at both ends. Is there any reason why 0 couldn't be used for a layover?
Seems like it would cause less disruption, as then all southbound services would be departing from the same P1/2 - the biggest change a passenger would have to make would be walking a few metres to the other platform face of the same island.
 

plugwash

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P0 and P1 both primarily serve the up slow line, but P1 alao has connections to the up fast while P0 does not.Afaict to get from P1 to the carriage sidings a train needs to cross from the up slow to the up fast, then to the down fast, then reverse, then cross onto the down slow and finally branch off into the carriage maintinance depot.

Also accroding to traksy the signal at the north end of p1 is a regular signal while those at the north end of platforms 0 and 2 are only shunt signals.
 
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Llama

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The north end of platforms 0 and 2 are not shunt signals, rather they are limit of shunt signals.

Platform 1 is more useful than 0 for laying over because a train can start (and in passenger service if needs be) northwards as well as south - the signal at the north end of P1 is a main aspect signal.
 

Greybeard33

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Incidentally, how long is bay 3A? Could it take, for example a 6-car 323 or a 4-car 150 if they needed to terminate a train short for whatever reason?
According to the Sectional Appendix, Stockport P3a is 97m long. So it can take one 3-car or 4-car unit, or any combination of two 2-car units.

The southbound entry into P3a is from the Up Fast (P2 line), and the northbound exit is on to the Down Fast, potentially conflicting with departures from P3.
 
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