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Transdev Blazefield

Andyh82

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We may as well highlight it now.... There's 15 63 plate Geminis on Witch Way and 3 B7TLs (plus whatever POTN vehicles deputise) and 5 CityZap so it's not looking like a total replacement. Perhaps 4 CityZap and 15 for WW and then some 63 plates in POTN to cover?
I would agree with that split

With a PVR of 4 it'd be unrealistic to expect any spares

The PVR on Witch Way is 16 off peak, 17 in the peaks, so they are basically at least 2 buses short.

I'd worry there may be some frequency decreases, maybe the Skipton end reduced to hourly
 
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RustySpoons

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I'd worry there may be some frequency decreases, maybe the Skipton end reduced to hourly

There has been mention of changes to the Burnley - Skipton section in the past.

Further info for those interested in the mechanical bits...

Screenshot 2020-02-21 at 16.49.37.png

If there genuinely are useful never seen before on a bus features then hopefully we'll have something that is genuinely game changing!
 

peterblue

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Mind you, I'm shocked that CityZap is getting new fleet. I'm sure someone used to post regularly about it never carrying hardly anyone....

It's hit and miss from my experiences. Sometimes it can be very busy indeed, more so at Weekends with decent weather. Overall it seems to do okay.

I think coaches might have been a better option for the Cityzap fleet, though, that would have cost more too.
 

peterblue

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It would surprise me if only a partial fleet replacement is ordered. I would theorise either the buses are for the WitchWay only, or there is going to be a slight PVR cut on the Witchway (most likely on the Skipton end - either transferring that to Mainline or reducing WW to hourly)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It's hit and miss from my experiences. Sometimes it can be very busy indeed, more so at Weekends with decent weather. Overall it seems to do okay.

I think coaches might have been a better option for the Cityzap fleet, though, that would have cost more too.
Not many folks buy coaches for "limited stop" services these days. You end up with a vehicle hammered after 8 years and then struggle to redeploy!
 

RustySpoons

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What would constitute "genuinely game changing"?

Something not seen on public service buses at the moment, yet will more than likely be common place in the next few years.

As to what that'll be, I've no idea! To be honest I don't think they can go wrong with the standard Transdev spec at the moment. I wouldn't say it's class leading but you couldn't expect more from a bus.
 

Deerfold

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Something not seen on public service buses at the moment, yet will more than likely be common place in the next few years.

As to what that'll be, I've no idea! To be honest I don't think they can go wrong with the standard Transdev spec at the moment. I wouldn't say it's class leading but you couldn't expect more from a bus.

They could do with making sure they stay like that. I find the USB charging very useful, but a less than 80% chance of it working.
 

Andyh82

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The new version of the Keighley to Leeds 60 timetable which starts today takes the unprecedented step of trying to turn away passengers

Most peak time journeys either have a red or amber icon which says that this journey is either popular or very popular, and that you are more likely to find a seat on another journey.

I’ve seen this sort of thing in the rail industry before but never on buses.
 

Bcn1973

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I would have thought cutting the skipton frequency would make sense, very hard to keep to schedule over such a long route, especially getting in and out of Manchester could revert to mainline working or even bring back the old X28 reducing the vehicle requirement for X43
 

Baxenden Bank

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The new version of the Keighley to Leeds 60 timetable which starts today takes the unprecedented step of trying to turn away passengers

Most peak time journeys either have a red or amber icon which says that this journey is either popular or very popular, and that you are more likely to find a seat on another journey.

I’ve seen this sort of thing in the rail industry before but never on buses.
And the thought: "Oh, our services are proving popular, lets provide more to meet that demand and grow the business further" just doesn't enter their pretty little heads.
 

Baxenden Bank

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I would have thought cutting the skipton frequency would make sense, very hard to keep to schedule over such a long route, especially getting in and out of Manchester could revert to mainline working or even bring back the old X28 reducing the vehicle requirement for X43
Alternatively, run X43 to Bury Interchange and transfer passengers to Metrolink, avoiding the congested sections of route. Transport Co-ordination, Integration. It'll never catch on.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Alternatively, run X43 to Bury Interchange and transfer passengers to Metrolink, avoiding the congested sections of route. Transport Co-ordination, Integration. It'll never catch on.
That’ll be popular.... Go shopping in Manchester and then force people to travel by tram, then go up an escalator, across a bus station and then on a bus.

So 28 mins + 5 mins transfer time and then 30 mins to Rawtenstall = 63 mins vs the current 48..... that won’t catch on either :rolleyes:
 

158756

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Alternatively, run X43 to Bury Interchange and transfer passengers to Metrolink, avoiding the congested sections of route. Transport Co-ordination, Integration. It'll never catch on.

How much would that benefit the passenger though? There'd be basically no time saving against the off peak or 'fast' peak bus timetable, but you get the extra hassle and potential for delay in the connection. There's no ticket which exists or which Transdev can create that would be valid on such a journey, and very importantly for the bus market, Lancashire bus passes aren't valid on Metrolink.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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How much would that benefit the passenger though? There'd be basically no time saving against the off peak or 'fast' peak bus timetable. There's no ticket which exists or which Transdev can create that would be valid on such a journey, and very importantly for the bus market, Lancashire bus passes aren't valid on Metrolink.
There’s no time saving - quite the opposite PLUS the b*ggeration factor. I can’t think of a single positive aspect to it.
 

Baxenden Bank

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That’ll be popular.... Go shopping in Manchester and then force people to travel by tram, then go up an escalator, across a bus station and then on a bus.

So 28 mins + 5 mins transfer time and then 30 mins to Rawtenstall = 63 mins vs the current 48..... that won’t catch on either :rolleyes:

How much would that benefit the passenger though? There'd be basically no time saving against the off peak or 'fast' peak bus timetable, but you get the extra hassle and potential for delay in the connection. There's no ticket which exists or which Transdev can create that would be valid on such a journey, and very importantly for the bus market, Lancashire bus passes aren't valid on Metrolink.

There’s no time saving - quite the opposite PLUS the b*ggeration factor. I can’t think of a single positive aspect to it.
Exactly.

But that is what Tyne & Wear forced upon their 'customers' when the Metro opened, quickly abandoned on de-regulation when the operators could do as they wished. It is what TfGM wanted to do recently, if not enforcing a change at Bury, at least forcing cross-city centre routes (like the X43) to terminate on the approach and transfer to a shuttle bus/tram at, say, Shudehill instead of serving Chorlton Street.

People who wish for re-regulation need to remember just how (brain)dead that hand of government can be. Totally fixated on political aims and not those of the service user. Think hospitals located for the convenience of drivers, disregarding bus users. Think council offices relocated from town centres to out-of-town business parks, inaccessible to non-drivers.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Exactly.

But that is what Tyne & Wear forced upon their 'customers' when the Metro opened, quickly abandoned on de-regulation when the operators could do as they wished. It is what TfGM wanted to do recently, if not enforcing a change at Bury, at least forcing cross-city centre routes (like the X43) to terminate on the approach and transfer to a shuttle bus/tram at, say, Shudehill instead of serving Chorlton Street.

People who wish for re-regulation need to remember just how (brain)dead that hand of government can be. Totally fixated on political aims and not those of the service user. Think hospitals located for the convenience of drivers, disregarding bus users. Think council offices relocated from town centres to out-of-town business parks, inaccessible to non-drivers.

Apologies - I thought you were being serious :oops: However, it is the sort of dogmatic stuff that some on this board would promote.

Integrate where it makes sense and make it easy, but direct when it needs to be. Absolutely agree
 

Baxenden Bank

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Apologies - I thought you were being serious :oops: However, it is the sort of dogmatic stuff that some on this board would promote.

Integrate where it makes sense and make it easy, but direct when it needs to be. Absolutely agree
I was being part serious and part not.

If there was a need to reduce the X43 PVR, then terminating at Bury with an onward Metrolink connection (and offering through tickets which could be sorted with QR codes on bus tickets) is perhaps a better option than reducing the frequency between Burnley and Skipton. There are advantages (less road vehicle emissions and vehicle use in the congested urban area) balanced against the inconvenience and risk of a connection.

The two express routes to Manchester (Witchway / X43 and Red Express / X41) clearly serve a need in the absence of direct rail routes from the east Lancashire towns, Rossendale in particular, to the city centre. They are not competing against a frequent / direct rail service and their withdrawal would undoubtedly cause a modal shift to car, rather than to a bus/tram combination. Only if the time savings were substantial would I consider a forced split at Bury to be a reasonable alternative.

Personally I have done the trip from Manchester to Grassington, but I split the journey at Burnley for a comfort stop. It is however a better option than the indirect rail routes. Re-configuring the route with a forced split at Burnley, the slow grind up the Mainline to Colne, then through Earby and a reversal via Barnoldswick would make the trip far less attractive. This is, of course, how the route used to be before the demise of Pennine.

Were we living in a transport co-ordinated world, some kind of direct, express, link from Manchester (or Bury) to Skipton would be a sensible infill to complement the rail network.

The Lancashire (ie ex Ribble) limited stop / express routes are something of an anomaly, not being widely replicated elsewhere in the country. Many NBC opcos had limited stop routes, but not to the extent of Ribble. In the discussion over the withdrawal of the Red Express, I skimmed through a couple of books where I was reminded that these routes were indeed an anomaly, being exempt from the service cuts caused by fuel rationing - because they were recognised as essential routes rather than a luxury add-on to normal stage-carriage services.
 

peterblue

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If there was a need to reduce the X43 PVR, then terminating at Bury with an onward Metrolink connection (and offering through tickets which could be sorted with QR codes on bus tickets) is perhaps a better option than reducing the frequency between Burnley and Skipton. There are advantages (less road vehicle emissions and vehicle use in the congested urban area) balanced against the inconvenience and risk of a connection.

That won't work! It'd add on +20 mins each way. It's also a suicidal move for Transdev to make. The general public also really do not like changing buses and do not like changing modes of transport. It may seem easy for you and I, but you would be surprised how easily confused some people may get.

There will always be "winners and loses" in the bus industry with routes etc. If there is a strong need to reduce PVR (I don't believe so - as the WW does well - but hypothetically) the axe should be wielded at the lesser performing section of the route (i.e. Skipton) , not the main profitable part of the route!
 

Fisherman80

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We may as well highlight it now.... There's 15 63 plate Geminis on Witch Way and 3 B7TLs (plus whatever POTN vehicles deputise) and 5 CityZap so it's not looking like a total replacement. Perhaps 4 CityZap and 15 for WW and then some 63 plates in POTN to cover?

Given the new First Excel fleet in Norfolk, which look (from the photos) to be pretty impressive, the best ones ever seen will take some doing. With Ray Stenning involved, they will doubtless be a cut above the rest though. However, they could have seats finished in the finest panda fur, and some will make comment about them being rather mundane and the antithesis of amazing.

Mind you, I'm shocked that CityZap is getting new fleet. I'm sure someone used to post regularly about it never carrying hardly anyone....
Guilty as charged for saying I hardly seen any passengers (a dozen at the most) getting on or off the CityZap service at Leeds bus station midweek during the day!
Anyway,I really do hope things have picked up as I'm hardly in Leeds these days.
On a more serious note,I wonder how the new Scarborough to York Northen service will affect Coastliner from May.
 

RustySpoons

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I think Zap is one of them services that is either empty (or certain journeys will always run light), or it's rammed. Certainly it must be carrying a fair bit if they're able to justify brand new buses for it - RedEx/X41 has been running for far longer over in Lancs and I don't think it's ever had anything other than hand me downs. Aside from a new B7TL in 2005 which went to Harrogate shortly after.

I always wonder how the increased loadings on Zap has affected Coastliner between York and Leeds though? All well and good saying Zap is carrying X amount of passengers, but is it at the expense of losing a load from Coastliner?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Guilty as charged for saying I hardly seen any passengers (a dozen at the most) getting on or off the CityZap service at Leeds bus station midweek during the day!
Anyway,I really do hope things have picked up as I'm hardly in Leeds these days.
On a more serious note,I wonder how the new Scarborough to York Northen service will affect Coastliner from May.

Wasn’t you :lol:

I think Zap is one of them services that is either empty (or certain journeys will always run light), or it's rammed. Certainly it must be carrying a fair bit if they're able to justify brand new buses for it - RedEx/X41 has been running for far longer over in Lancs and I don't think it's ever had anything other than hand me downs. Aside from a new B7TL in 2005 which went to Harrogate shortly after.

I always wonder how the increased loadings on Zap has affected Coastliner between York and Leeds though? All well and good saying Zap is carrying X amount of passengers, but is it at the expense of losing a load from Coastliner?

If it were losing a load then Transdev would cull it. However, if it’s taken just a small amount but has really grown the market, then that’s fine.

If CZ was a bad as some suggest, it would either be axed or receive compliant hand me downs, not new vehicles. Unlike the Manc CZ, you can see why the York one would work.
 

RELL6L

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Is the Skipton end of the Witch Way that badly performing? It seems a trunk route from Burnley to Skipton, not covered by a rail alternative, Barnoldswick ought to provide good demand and the X43 is much quicker than the M5. I am pretty sure that not long ago this corridor was even more frequent and there was a period of competition. I guess if reliability was too bad due to congestion at the Manchester end then, to provide a decent service north of Burnley, maybe it would be better divided but I think that would be a shame. Hopefully there's a plan.
 

RustySpoons

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Is the Skipton end of the Witch Way that badly performing? It seems a trunk route from Burnley to Skipton, not covered by a rail alternative, Barnoldswick ought to provide good demand and the X43 is much quicker than the M5. I am pretty sure that not long ago this corridor was even more frequent and there was a period of competition. I guess if reliability was too bad due to congestion at the Manchester end then, to provide a decent service north of Burnley, maybe it would be better divided but I think that would be a shame. Hopefully there's a plan.

I don't think it's badly performing, I think it's more to do with the reliability. It's the only link to Skipton from Burnley and Colne, at one time there were four buses an hour between B&P and Pennine.

I did think it was odd to graft the Skipton section onto the X43, especially considering the delays that often affect buses going into/out of Manchester. Beyond Colne it doesn't take a lot to cause chaos either. According to one of the DMs at Queensgate discussions had been taking place with regards to splitting the service but nothings been decided yet I don't think, and obviously nothings been made official.
 

Deerfold

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I don't think it's badly performing, I think it's more to do with the reliability. It's the only link to Skipton from Burnley and Colne, at one time there were four buses an hour between B&P and Pennine.

For some time after the demise of Pennine there were 4 bph (on 2 different route variants) between Burnley and Skipton.
 

Staffordian

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For some time after the demise of Pennine there were 4 bph (on 2 different route variants) between Burnley and Skipton.
However, that level of service was both unprecedented and short-lived, as traditionally both Skipton -Barnoldswick (Ezra Laycock/Pennine) and Skipton-Earby-Colne-Barnoldswick (Ribble X43) were generally hourly. After deregulation, these were combined as one hourly route under Pennine (not serving Earby), and it was only when Transdev started competing on the route in the 2000’s that the frequency increased.
 

Deerfold

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However, that level of service was both unprecedented and short-lived, as traditionally both Skipton -Barnoldswick (Ezra Laycock/Pennine) and Skipton-Earby-Colne-Barnoldswick (Ribble X43) were generally hourly. After deregulation, these were combined as one hourly route under Pennine (not serving Earby), and it was only when Transdev started competing on the route in the 2000’s that the frequency increased.

Indeed, but Transdev did increase their frequency after the announcement of the demise of Pennine - presumably they thought there was a call for it.
 

RustySpoons

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Details of upcoming changes to Mainline and Witch Way services.

https://www.transdevbus.co.uk/burnley/breaking-news-improvements-witchway-and-mainline-buses

Transdev Blurb said:
Witchway will run between Burnley and Manchester only, with the Burnley to Skipton section separated (see below). Customers travelling across Burnley will still be able to do so, by changing buses in Burnley bus station.

Why? Making this change means we can give buses more time between their journeys. This doesn’t affect the timetable for you, but for us it means that if we meet congestion on the route it’s less likely to have a knock-on effect on later journeys – so we can be more reliable for you.

Between Burnley and Skipton there will still be a bus every 30 minutes, running fast along the motorway to Colne, then to Skipton. These buses will go through Earby as well as Barnoldswick, giving customers in Earby a much faster link to Burnley

Why? Feedback from customers tells us the fast link between Colne and Burnley is really valuable, and that people in both Barnoldswick and Earby would like to have a direct link to Skipton.

Mainline M5 will no longer run between Colne and Earby or Barnoldswick as this link will be provided as described above. This means that customers travelling between Earby or Barnoldswick and Nelson will change at Colne. There will still be an every 7 minute frequency on Mainline between Burnley and Colne.

Why? With an every 30 minute bus from Burnley fast to Colne and onto Earby or Barnoldswick, the current M5 bus would only serve to duplicate a small part of this journey, so this change is just to remove that duplication.

In addition to the changes to the routes of Mainline and Witchway above, some more improvements are proposed:

  • The morning fast journeys from Burnley to Manchester will be retimed to leave Burnley at 6.20am, 6.40am, 7am and 7.20am, leaving Rawtenstall at 6.44am, 7.04am, 7.24am and 7.44am. Buses falling between these times will take the usual route through Prestwich. It means there is a bus to Manchester every 10 minutes during the morning rush hour.
  • In the afternoon, there will be an additional trip from Burnley to Manchester – new trips at 5.15pm and 5.40pm will replace the current 5.25pm bus. This means there will be buses every 15 mins until 3.35pm, then every 20 mins until 5.40pm when the evening service starts. There will also still be two fast rush hour buses.
  • An extra trip will run in the evening from Manchester to Burnley, meaning there are buses every 15 minutes until 3:30pm, and then every 20 minutes via Prestwich until 7.30pm which gives more journeys into the early evening. There will still be three fast rush hour buses.
  • We’ll add later buses from Skipton to Burnley, with the last bus Monday to Saturday at 8.45pm – an hour later than now.
  • We’ll also add a later bus from Burnley to Skipton, leaving at 7.15pm, which connects from Manchester.
These are only proposals for now, nothing official, but going off past changes and announcements there won't be much difference to the proposals and final outcome.

I do find it quite irritating that the link between Earby and Skipton was never a priority because there were 'easy connections' with the X43 at Barnoldswick. The cynic in me wonders if they've only decided it'll be 'valuable' now Stagecoach run through on the 280 (albeit at a lower frequency).
 

Andyh82

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So following the announcement of the new buses, the predicted cat is out of the bag.

It’s better than I’d expected, as I thought they might just extend the M5 to Skipton. It’s good they’ve kept the fast motorway link between Burnley and Colne.
 

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