• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Unusual cancellation reason

Status
Not open for further replies.

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
3,927
Why is “more trains than usual needing repairs” seen by some as an “excuse”? It’s a perfectly good reason!
Yesterday, I had to send out a 4 vice 8 Class 387 formation as one 387 didn’t make it off it’s B Exam in time for morning service, instead of the 4 units we can have on maintenance we ended up with 5 leaving us one short for traffic, so that “excuse” is actually spot on.

As usual the armchair experts with their ‘tin-foil’ conspiracy hats on, obviously know better!

I think it’s the ‘than usual’ bit. A couple of summers ago GWR had a large number of services affected due to this reason over a relatively long period of time. So it was actually usual to have short formed trains.

Something like ‘A shortage of trains because of maintenance requirements’ may be more apt in prolonged periods of stock shortages. I’m aware that this reason doesn’t exist and TOCs have to use the closest fitting reason.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RailWonderer

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
1,588
Location
All around the network
My favourites:
594/595 - This train has been cancelled because of a train not stopping at a station it was supposed to earlier in its journey
680 - This train has been cancelled because of a train's automatic braking system being activated
653/663 - Supermarket trolley on the track
There should’ve been one for trampoline on the track after the storms.
 

warwickshire

On Moderation
Joined
6 Feb 2020
Messages
1,883
Location
leamingtonspa
Why is “more trains than usual needing repairs” seen by some as an “excuse”? It’s a perfectly good reason!
Yesterday, I had to send out a 4 vice 8 Class 387 formation as one 387 didn’t make it off it’s B Exam in time for morning service, instead of the 4 units we can have on maintenance we ended up with 5 leaving us one short for traffic, so that “excuse” is actually spot on.

As usual the armchair experts with their ‘tin-foil’ conspiracy hats on, obviously know better!
Northern don't want to send out a 142 combi and 150 on the Calder valley line leeds services anymore. Despite can do so dispensation . Al'so have a east area manager with links to Bradford and Calder valley. Who can't stand Pacers and when on a public 331 demo at December last year at Bradford admitted this and how he admires and is quite attached to 195 Calder valley and 331 Leeds locals
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,459
Location
Sheffield
Why is “more trains than usual needing repairs” seen by some as an “excuse”? It’s a perfectly good reason!

Northern have been giving out that excuse/reason for well over six months. When does an "unusual" situation become the "usual" situation ?
 

45107

On Moderation
Joined
3 May 2014
Messages
311
Northern have been giving out that excuse/reason for well over six months. When does an "unusual" situation become the "usual" situation ?
Because they have been allocated x number of units for y number of diagrams with no scope for replacement.
When y exceeds x there are ‘more trains that usual needing repairs’.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Northern have been giving out that excuse/reason for well over six months. When does an "unusual" situation become the "usual" situation ?

Because they have been allocated x number of units for y number of diagrams with no scope for replacement.
When y exceeds x there are ‘more trains that usual needing repairs’.

I haven't heard that Northern were actually forced to return 142s and 319s to the leasing companies.
 

TheSel

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2017
Messages
853
Location
Southport, Merseyside
Because they have been allocated x number of units for y number of diagrams with no scope for replacement.
When y exceeds x there are ‘more trains that [sic] usual needing repairs’.

Really? Isn't that both over-simplistic and somewhat inaccurate?

Surely the truth is that the company has z units, from which it requires x to be available to cover y diagrams.

It thus has a responsibility to manage its resources such that x (the number of available units) is not fewer than y. Essentially, it needs to control z-x. So a more honest description for cancellation might be "we haven't managed our resources well enough".

Simple example - you have 10 units to cover 9 diagrams. If one is unavailable, you're laughing. If two are unavailable, you're in shtuck. So, as soon as availability drops below 90%, you have a problem.
 

Rhinojerry

Member
Joined
2 Oct 2019
Messages
108
Location
Bamber Bridge
Pendolino Preston to Glasgow 09/02 this year,cancelled because of heat.haha.not the first time i have seen this used thru inclement weather.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Why is “more trains than usual needing repairs” seen by some as an “excuse”? It’s a perfectly good reason!
Yesterday, I had to send out a 4 vice 8 Class 387 formation as one 387 didn’t make it off it’s B Exam in time for morning service, instead of the 4 units we can have on maintenance we ended up with 5 leaving us one short for traffic, so that “excuse” is actually spot on.

As usual the armchair experts with their ‘tin-foil’ conspiracy hats on, obviously know better!

TOCs involved in providing local services, particularly, generally keep sufficient rolling stock to cover PVR and scheduled maintenance. They don't keep any spare stock above that, since no-one pays them to. Any rolling stock unavailability caused by unscheduled maintenance is covered by short-forming and/or cancellations.
With the best maintenance in the world, stock is bound to develop faults or be involved in 'incidents' - even a shunting accident is likely to result in stock being grounded. That effectively guarantees there will be short-forming and cancellations.
Who do we blame for the foregoing - the TOCs, for adopting the strategy they do, or the government, for encouraging them to?
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Edit: Just counted 39 services across Northern that yesterday (Thursday 20th) were either cancelled, delayed or short formed due to a larger number of trains being repaired than normal. Yes, the area served by Northern is big, but that's still a lot.

Sometimes Northern declares likely short-forms for a an hour or two in advance, sometimes it declares them, at the start of the day, for the entire day. It's unfortunately now too late to establish what sort of period the 39 cancelled/delayed/short-formed services covered, but, given the number of trips Northern rolling stock can do in a day, a stated number of short-forms/cancellations can sometimes equate to a surprisingly low number of sets being involved. 39 short-forms/cancellations can often mean a shortage of only of only five or six carriages in total.
Of course, that's no excuse, TOCs should keep sufficient rolling stock to be able to run a full service most of the time, and have a strategy for coping on the occasions when they don't have.
 
Last edited:

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,800
Because they use it a lot. If you have loads of services cancelled for it a day, you either have a serious lack of stock (which is actually the case, due to the Pacer issue) or are lying (which is what the public think)

Edit: Just counted 39 services across Northern that yesterday (Thursday 20th) were either cancelled, delayed or short formed due to a larger number of trains being repaired than normal. Yes, the area served by Northern is big, but that's still a lot.

Northern also use it a lot in leaf fall season, and when challenged that this should be something they should reasonably expect given leaves have fallen since the year dot and their trains pick up flatspots because of it, their reply was “ah yes, but we don’t know which trains”.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,800
given the number of trips Northern rolling stock can do in a day, a stated number of short-forms/cancellations can sometimes equate to a surprisingly low number of sets being involved

This is true, though given just how many two carriages trains I see (commuting on the Calder Valley and working next to the railway between Victoria and Miles Platting) I strongly believe either they’re not updating systems with every shortform or they’ve amended the planned train length to two for a lot of their services
 

45107

On Moderation
Joined
3 May 2014
Messages
311
I haven't heard that Northern were actually forced to return 142s and 319s to the leasing companies.
I suspect that the implementation of the 195 & 331 fleets is such that it is a ‘1 for 1’ (or whatever ratio is used) replacement.
In a cost driven railway, Northern are not going to pay 2 lots of leasing fees to the ROSCOs

The expectation is that the replacement units will work as they say on the tin. The reality is some what different.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
I haven't heard that Northern were actually forced to return 142s and 319s to the leasing companies.

I suspect that the implementation of the 195 & 331 fleets is such that it is a ‘1 for 1’ (or whatever ratio is used) replacement.
In a cost driven railway, Northern are not going to pay 2 lots of leasing fees to the ROSCOs

The expectation is that the replacement units will work as they say on the tin. The reality is some what different.

You had earlier said..
Because they have been allocated x number of units for y number of diagrams with no scope for replacement.
When y exceeds x there are ‘more trains that usual needing repairs’.
 

3270

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2015
Messages
150
Pendolino Preston to Glasgow 09/02 this year,cancelled because of heat.haha.not the first time i have seen this used thru inclement weather.
The cancellation code was X4 which means 'because of a blanket speed restriction due to extreme heat or high winds'. The description seen on systems such as RTT doesn't mention the bit about high winds.
 

45107

On Moderation
Joined
3 May 2014
Messages
311
Really? Isn't that both over-simplistic and somewhat inaccurate?

Surely the truth is that the company has z units, from which it requires x to be available to cover y diagrams.

It thus has a responsibility to manage its resources such that x (the number of available units) is not fewer than y. Essentially, it needs to control z-x. So a more honest description for cancellation might be "we haven't managed our resources well enough".

Simple example - you have 10 units to cover 9 diagrams. If one is unavailable, you're laughing. If two are unavailable, you're in shtuck. So, as soon as availability drops below 90%, you have a problem.
Indeed it is. In the same way that a shortage is ‘we haven’t managed resources well enough’ is over simplistic.
In an ideal railway, there is a never ending money tree that is used to source spares and staff when things go wrong.
In the real world, there are restrictions on costs and staffing and any failure or shortage leaves the TOC exposed.
 

Rhinojerry

Member
Joined
2 Oct 2019
Messages
108
Location
Bamber Bridge
The cancellation code was X4 which means 'because of a blanket speed restriction due to extreme heat or high winds'. The description seen on systems such as RTT doesn't mention the bit about high winds.
Thank you for that..Still prefer the heat excuse tho.
 

45107

On Moderation
Joined
3 May 2014
Messages
311
Wasn't that was my original point?
Without knowing the details of the leasing arrangements, I do not know whether or not Northern were forced to return the units. My suspicion is that the agreement was such that they had to be returned when they were replaced so therefore they were forced to.

Whether or not entering into that agreement was considered wise by UKR forum members is different from the view of Northern & the ROSCIs
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,800
Northern entered into a series of short term lease extensions designed to match the departure of the pacers to the arrival of their replacements. The owners have no other use for them, and subject to Northern obtaining the necessary derogations, would have been happy to continue the leases of those that have gone back. Northern chose not to do this, initially because of the cost and more recently because of the loss of the franchise

Yet again, passengers are the least of anyone’s concerns
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
To add to that, the 195s and 331s are being leased through Eversholt Rail, the 142s have been leased through Angel Trains, and the 319s through Porterbrook. It's highly unlikely that Eversholt would have had any say in whether or not stock was returned to Angel/Porterbrook.
 

talltim

Established Member
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
2,454
There’s all these weird excuses, yet there doesn’t appear to be in for ‘a bridge needing inspection’ Northern were using ‘a road vehicle striking a bridge’ at Rotherham Central when the Supertrams weren’t running due a bridge needing inspection after the heavy rain recently
 

TheSel

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2017
Messages
853
Location
Southport, Merseyside
Maybe not an "unusual reason" as such, but surely unusual to be given details of the nature of the passenger's condition?

upload_2020-2-23_9-7-24.png

Paramedics attended and said "We've gotta gonner 'ere ...", perhaps?
 

Chris217

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2018
Messages
620
One wonders if some excuses are just that!
Mostly because normal passengers wouldnt understand the real technical reasons why a train would be delayed or cancelled.
For instance.....

Many years ago I was on a Milford Haven to Bristol TM train travelling from Swansea to Bristol.
It was a class 33 hauling 5 mk1 coaches.
Our train developed an axle hot box and we were diverted into Margam Yard where passengers were moved to the front 2 coaches of the train whilst they removed the offending carriage.
When we got into Cardiff,Central,the announcers said we apologise for the delay,this was due to signal faults in the Bridgend area.
We never even stopped there!

To those who weren't on the train,they wouldnt know any better!
I used to know some of the train announcers back then,and it was common practice to announce 'softened' excuses for delays and cancellations.
Not sure if its,allowed now with delay repay schemes introduced meaning a delay or cancellation has to be blamed by the TOC or NR.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,800
My sons on an XC from Newcastle to York, delayed 15 mins at Darlo. According to NRE it’s due to “the train being cleaned specially”, but according to the conductor it’s because some oily bags got wedged between the wheel and the brakes and caught fire.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top