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Motorway driving habits.

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DerekC

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There are some things which are even more of an issue on 2-lane dual carriageways like the A34. Watch out for joiners at junctions - it seems to be an accepted thing these days that you just pull out into the inside lane and it's up to the guy on the main road to move over. All well and good if you can but sometimes you just can't. Vary your speed if necessary to keep clear of them. And keep an eye on pairs of trucks where the one behind is doing about 1mph more than the one ahead - the follower will frequently swing out with very little warning. Speed up or slow down to avoid the moment of danger. This is where I find automatic cruise control just doesn't cut it because it can't vary the speed of the car a bit. I use it when the road is pretty clear, but as soon as it's busy it's back to manual for me.
 
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MotCO

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The thing I find very disconcerting is when cars race down empty lanes which have been closed by the big red cross and flashing lights. It is extremely dangerous (how do you know why the lane is closed - there could be a large pothole or a broken down car), and what gives them the right to think that they are more important or special that they need to go faster than anyone else and jump the queues?
 

Busaholic

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Pretty much how I see things @Bletchleyite. But I’d also add: Leave your ego on the hook that holds your car keys as you leave the house.
We all make mistakes and that I always say to myself is “you’re not the perfect driver. Just do your best and be aware that you sometimes make mistakes”.
Me Too.
 

The Ham

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The thing I find very disconcerting is when cars race down empty lanes which have been closed by the big red cross and flashing lights. It is extremely dangerous (how do you know why the lane is closed - there could be a large pothole or a broken down car), and what gives them the right to think that they are more important or special that they need to go faster than anyone else and jump the queues?

Indeed, it's why on the Smart Motorway thread that this was split from that I suggested that there was a need for a specific penalty for driving through red crosses with the penalty increasing significantly for each successive one you drove through.

First one 3 points £200 fine
Drive through 2 successive ones 9 points £600 fine
Drive through 3 successive ones 27 points £1,800 fine
Drive through 4 or more lifetime ban £6,000 fine

Any points which you get above 12 points only start counting once previous points have expired, with any driving ban from reaching 12 points laying until 1 year after you get below 12 points again. As an example 27 points on your license and you'd need to wait 6 years to clear two lots of 12 points and you can would last 1 further year (7 year ban for driving through 3 successive crosses).

What that may sound harsh, there would have been 3 move over arrows in advance on the first cross, so to pass through 3 further gantries (a total of 6) without moving over would be hard to explain away without admitting to driving to without due care and attention. Especially given that you'd likely have driven for 2 miles and been in the left lane for 1 minute under the move over arrows and a further 1 minute. With most gantries visible for several hundred metres before them.

I can't think of many reasons as to why you couldn't get across within that timeframe and body of those relate to poor driving skills.
 

hooverboy

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On non-smart motorways, I think that there should be a minimum speed limit of 60mph. That way cars and small commercials keep out of the way of 56mph HGVs. It was over 20 years ago, when I was driving in Germany and HGVs were banned from overtaking on uphill stretches of motorways. Nothing is worse than one HGV limited to 56 mph overtaking another one with a 55.9 mph limiter and blocking the middle lane.
I can't remember but was there a minimum speed limit on the autobahns?
agreed, this is one of the biggest causes of accidents,after tailgating.

The speed differential between goods vehicles and other mainstream traffic is such that when one goods vehicle pulls out from the inside to the middle lane(s),it causes a chain reaction of brake lights and manouvres to avoid them.
I get the point from HGV drivers that they do have substantial blind spots to worry about,and it's much easier to miss a potential obstacle.

hence why so many drivers "hog" the middle lane.
it's really out of necessity beacuse the inside lane is going much slower than the other traffic.

if the highway code were being followed to the letter,the situation would actually be far worse as there would be many,many more cars hopping in and out of 2 lanes rather than one.
not to mention not all drivers are considerate enough to allow lots of space between themselves and the car in front, or be inclined to permit another vehicle to join in front of them.

having everyone travel at 60mph is not really on either. I have noticed that on these variable speed limit motorways that when the 60/50 signs are illuminated the vehicles have a habit of bunching up,leaving insufficient distance between themselves and the guy in front..this could be a potential problem in the making.

Also with smart motorways,if a breakdown occurs,people now seem to just park their car in whatever lane they break down in,and getting on the mobile,rather than using the hard shoulder/refuge.
I think they just hit panic mode because they are distressed and an immediate escape route is not obvious,so they just shut down.
This causes enormous amounts of tailbacks.
 
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Bletchleyite

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First one 3 points £200 fine
Drive through 2 successive ones 9 points £600 fine
Drive through 3 successive ones 27 points £1,800 fine
Drive through 4 or more lifetime ban £6,000 fine

I think I'd just send a warning letter for the first one, or maybe a small (£30?) fine? What we don't want is people screwing up on approach to one (or seeing it go X in front of them and not knowing the 60 second thing), getting stuck in that lane and emergency braking to a stop. That would be really dangerous.

By all means go fully hefty for a second consecutive one in the same lane, though, as that would be wilful.
 

Busaholic

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Indeed, it's why on the Smart Motorway thread that this was split from that I suggested that there was a need for a specific penalty for driving through red crosses with the penalty increasing significantly for each successive one you drove through.

First one 3 points £200 fine
Drive through 2 successive ones 9 points £600 fine
Drive through 3 successive ones 27 points £1,800 fine
Drive through 4 or more lifetime ban £6,000 fine

Any points which you get above 12 points only start counting once previous points have expired, with any driving ban from reaching 12 points laying until 1 year after you get below 12 points again. As an example 27 points on your license and you'd need to wait 6 years to clear two lots of 12 points and you can would last 1 further year (7 year ban for driving through 3 successive crosses).

What that may sound harsh, there would have been 3 move over arrows in advance on the first cross, so to pass through 3 further gantries (a total of 6) without moving over would be hard to explain away without admitting to driving to without due care and attention. Especially given that you'd likely have driven for 2 miles and been in the left lane for 1 minute under the move over arrows and a further 1 minute. With most gantries visible for several hundred metres before them.

I can't think of many reasons as to why you couldn't get across within that timeframe and body of those relate to poor driving skills.
I remember looking in to the 'lifetime ban' situation a year or two back and it appeared to be the case that the possibility of one has never been broached. In other words, there would appear to be nothing in place to prevent a judge imposing a lifetime ban in the worst cases e.g. multiple contraventions of drink/drug driving law, causing death by dangerous driving on more than one occasion, etc etc but they appear extremely reluctant to go down this road. I suspect a very good reason is that the most criminally recalcitrant drivers ignore the fact they have no licence/insurance and ignore any traffic laws, so a lifetime ban in itself would hold no fear for them. It follows, therefore, that something more radical that prevents them from jumping behind the wheel of a car is called for, and imprisonment would provide this for one, but maybe there could be something that hasn't been tried before in this country. Any ideas?
 

edwin_m

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It was over 20 years ago, when I was driving in Germany and HGVs were banned from overtaking on uphill stretches of motorways. Nothing is worse than one HGV limited to 56 mph overtaking another one with a 55.9 mph limiter and blocking the middle lane.
I can't remember but was there a minimum speed limit on the autobahns?
Same issue arises when an HGV pulls out to overtake another one, then the gradient changes and due to differences in power and load the overtaking one no longer has any speed advantage. Part of the 2-lane M42, climbing towards the summit not long before it becomes the A42, has signs restricting HGVs to the left hand lane in daytime. This helps a lot compared with other parts of the same section where a HGV overtake usually results in a long queue in lane 2, often to the extent that lane 1 is moving faster. But although the signs have been there for a few years now, I've not seen them replicated anywhere else.
 

Busaholic

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Same issue arises when an HGV pulls out to overtake another one, then the gradient changes and due to differences in power and load the overtaking one no longer has any speed advantage. Part of the 2-lane M42, climbing towards the summit not long before it becomes the A42, has signs restricting HGVs to the left hand lane in daytime. This helps a lot compared with other parts of the same section where a HGV overtake usually results in a long queue in lane 2, often to the extent that lane 1 is moving faster. But although the signs have been there for a few years now, I've not seen them replicated anywhere else.
Been a few years since I last used it, but the M4 eastbound (3 lane) had something similar a few miles after the junction with the M32 restricting HGVs to the slowest lane on an uphill section.
 

edwin_m

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Been a few years since I last used it, but the M4 eastbound (3 lane) had something similar a few miles after the junction with the M32 restricting HGVs to the slowest lane on an uphill section.
There's a crawler lane on the approach to the A46 turning, but as far as I'm aware no signs relating to HGV lane usage. Perhaps this has replaced the arrangement you mention? I haven't used the M4 beyond that turning for many years so I can't comment on what happens further east.
 

bramling

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Been a few years since I last used it, but the M4 eastbound (3 lane) had something similar a few miles after the junction with the M32 restricting HGVs to the slowest lane on an uphill section.

ISTR there's something similar on the A14 as well, from memory somewhere in the section heading westbound between Kettering and the M1 junction.
 

The Ham

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On the fact that 70 is safer than 80 point, because of the speeds and the distances traveled in reaction times a car traveling at 80 will still be going quite fast (IIRC >30) by the time a car doing 70 has stopped.

What's more telling is that by the time a car doing 70 is going at a speed that is likely to result in damage only (say 10) or light cuts and bruises, a car doing 80 would be traveling at such a speed that it's likely cause significant harm if not death.

I've found the information begins the above, by the time a car traveling at 70mph has stopped a car doing 80 would still be doing 41mph.

Whilst a car doing 80 would still be doing 56mph by the time a car doing 60 would have stopped.

Either of those (or any speed between the two) would result in a fairly serious impact and therefore would likely result in significant injury.
 

D365

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ISTR there's something similar on the A14 as well, from memory somewhere in the section heading westbound between Kettering and the M1 junction.

Yep, both westbound and eastbound between Catthorpe Interchange (M1 J19) and A14 J1.
 

ashkeba

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On non-smart motorways, I think that there should be a minimum speed limit of 60mph. That way cars and small commercials keep out of the way of 56mph HGVs.
I think there is no chance of imposing a 60mph minimum speed to ban 56mph HGVs from motorways.
 

Bobdogs

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I think there is no chance of imposing a 60mph minimum speed to ban 56mph HGVs from motorways.
What I meant was to have a minimum speed limit for non HGVs and PSVs.
Car drivers, for example, who potter along at 50mph, meaning HGVs have to pull out to overtake. If they can't maintain a speed of 60mph, they really shouldn't be on the motorway.
 

ashkeba

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What I meant was to have a minimum speed limit for non HGVs and PSVs.
Car drivers, for example, who potter along at 50mph, meaning HGVs have to pull out to overtake. If they can't maintain a speed of 60mph, they really shouldn't be on the motorway.
I do not think there is any current sign or law for such a limit. It would also prevent any car on an emergency wheel from even driving to the next junction because those are often limited to 50 mph and I think we probably want to keep those on motorways as much as possible so the control deterioration of travelling on an emergency wheel doesn't cause problems like on a winding A road through trees.

What's the problem with HGVs overtaking anyway? Fast car drivers need to learn that motorways are primarily for commerce, not racing the sat nav prediction.
 

Puffing Devil

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I do not think there is any current sign or law for such a limit. It would also prevent any car on an emergency wheel from even driving to the next junction because those are often limited to 50 mph and I think we probably want to keep those on motorways as much as possible so the control deterioration of travelling on an emergency wheel doesn't cause problems like on a winding A road through trees.

What's the problem with HGVs overtaking anyway? Fast car drivers need to learn that motorways are primarily for commerce, not racing the sat nav prediction.

There certainly are minimum speed limits in the UK, and appropriate signage. Page 21 https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf

The Mersey Tunnel has minimum speed limits, for example: Article in Liverpool Echo: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/14-laws-using-mersey-tunnels-15107692
 

nlogax

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Motorways don't have minimum speed limits due to the various factors which already slow traffic to a crawl.. roadworks, congestion, etc. While tunnel traffic is also affected by exactly the same factors it seems certain river locations are a special case - the Mersey, Dartford, Clude and Blackwall tunnels all have or had minimum limits in the past.
 

edwin_m

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If I recall correctly a vehicle using the motorway has to be capable of 25mph - there are occasional reports of milk floats etc being stopped. I imagine they could impose a higher minimum speed via the provisions applying to "special roads". And there could be exceptions to allow crippled vehicles to get off the motorway.
 

Bletchleyite

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If I recall correctly a vehicle using the motorway has to be capable of 25mph - there are occasional reports of milk floats etc being stopped. I imagine they could impose a higher minimum speed via the provisions applying to "special roads". And there could be exceptions to allow crippled vehicles to get off the motorway.

40mph I believe (which is why 50cc scooters are ruled out). But it's about capability to do that speed, there's no requirement to actually do it. That said, the law does give scope for minimum speed limits where it is actually an offence to wilfully go slower - tunnels often have them, they are indicated by a white number on a blue sign.

https://blog.passmefast.co.uk/driving-law/is-there-a-minimum-speed-limit/
 

ashkeba

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There certainly are minimum speed limits in the UK, and appropriate signage. Page 21 https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf

The Mersey Tunnel has minimum speed limits, for example: Article in Liverpool Echo: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/14-laws-using-mersey-tunnels-15107692
Are you sure? I do not see any car-only minimum speed limits there. Other countries have ways of displaying that signs only apply to certain categories of user (such as a lorry symbol on a white rectangle plate below or sometimes above the sign) but the UK does not seem to do this. Sometimes you can tell a UK driver in a hire car abroad because they are complying with the lorry speed limit unnecessarily or pulling into a mandatory lorry checkpoint and getting waved through!

Also, I note that the UK minimum speed limit sign has an exception for "impracticable or unsafe to comply" which makes me wonder if it is enforceable except in the rarest situations.
 

Puffing Devil

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Are you sure? I do not see any car-only minimum speed limits there. Other countries have ways of displaying that signs only apply to certain categories of user (such as a lorry symbol on a white rectangle plate below or sometimes above the sign) but the UK does not seem to do this. Sometimes you can tell a UK driver in a hire car abroad because they are complying with the lorry speed limit unnecessarily or pulling into a mandatory lorry checkpoint and getting waved through!

Also, I note that the UK minimum speed limit sign has an exception for "impracticable or unsafe to comply" which makes me wonder if it is enforceable except in the rarest situations.

You didn't say you were looking for "car only" limits. There are minimum speed limits in the UK. The signage is on page 21 of the document I linked and a web search will throw up multiple references to the minimum speed limits in the Mersey Tunnels. Not sure what else you were looking for.
 

ashkeba

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You didn't say you were looking for "car only" limits. There are minimum speed limits in the UK. The signage is on page 21 of the document I linked and a web search will throw up multiple references to the minimum speed limits in the Mersey Tunnels. Not sure what else you were looking for.
I was looking for "a minimum speed limit for non HGVs and PSVs" mentioned by @Bobdogs as plainly visible in the quote in my previous post. Please do not point me at the same documents again which do not contain such limits.
 

Bletchleyite

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I was looking for "a minimum speed limit for non HGVs and PSVs" mentioned by @Bobdogs as plainly visible in the quote in my previous post. Please do not point me at the same documents again which do not contain such limits.

There is no scope in UK law for minimum speed limits for specific classes of vehicle, and I am not at all clear why you would propose them as sensible or necessary.
 

Meerkat

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There is no scope in UK law for minimum speed limits for specific classes of vehicle, and I am not at all clear why you would propose them as sensible or necessary.
How would you even legislate and prosecute a minimum speed at 60?
Going to leave the police and courts trying to make huge subjective judgments when the accused just say “it wasn’t safe to do 60 because of X, Y, and Z.
 

Bletchleyite

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How would you even legislate and prosecute a minimum speed at 60?
Going to leave the police and courts trying to make huge subjective judgments when the accused just say “it wasn’t safe to do 60 because of X, Y, and Z.

I fail to see what the benefit of it would be. Driving at a very low speed on the motorway (say 20mph) would be really dangerous because you would be effectively an unexpected stationary vehicle in a running lane, which is why the likes of bicycles and 50cc scooters are not permitted. But above the 40mph minimum that your vehicle must be capable of, you can drive at whatever speed (subject to posted limits) you wish provided you maintain proper lane discipline. If anyone else doesn't like it, all they need to do is overtake.
 

bramling

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There is no scope in UK law for minimum speed limits for specific classes of vehicle, and I am not at all clear why you would propose them as sensible or necessary.

The problem is it's impossible to enforce. On the railway a driver is expected to drive at line speed in order to keep to the timetable, although he has an element of discretion to ease off if he judges the train is going to run early. Likewise the driver is expected to vary speed if there's a safety reason to do so. However a driver not keeping to line speed would flag up in a comp-assurance assessment. Needless to say continuous assessment isn't a feature for private motorists.
 

ashkeba

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There is no scope in UK law for minimum speed limits for specific classes of vehicle, and I am not at all clear why you would propose them as sensible or necessary.
I didnot propose them. @Bobdogs did. I do not think they would make sense either.
 

CrispyUK

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A particular hate of mine when joining a motorway (or A road), is getting stuck behind a car that doesn’t use the slip road to accelerate to road speed, but pootles down it at 25-30mph, leaving you trapped behind them trying to merge into a lane of traffic going twice your speed, so dangerous!
 
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