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Cheltenham Racecourse connection?

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30907

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https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/new-railway-line-park-ride-3871538

So, someone explain to me why this wouldn't be a good thing?

It would require approximately 1km of new railway, would be a great option for race days and could be used to turn around London services instead of using the Alstone sidings.
Even with Boris's bottomless bucket bonanza, a mile of brand new railway for a Park and Ride might not make a business case - especially as you then have to ask who would use it and how it would be served.
 

tigerroar

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Well, I've answered how it would be served.

And the station car park at Lansdown is woefully inadequate.
 

JonathanH

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There are merits to this proposal though.

An hourly service from London, and in most hours a service from Cardiff / Maesteg, terminates at Cheltenham and most cross to Alstone sidings - they have a longer than normal dwell at Cheltenham because they have to check that no-one is aboard. By running through to a station north of Cheltenham, it may be possible to reduce the dwell time at Cheltenham on the main line. This may mean that it is possible to run the services with no additional rolling stock.

Having said that, perhaps the turnaround times are a bit too tight.

Is there any value the Railway could realise by selling off Alstone Sidings to pay for the extension to the racecourse?
 

The Planner

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So to be clear, the capital cost of building this will be to run the ECS moves elsewhere and to run sporadic specials to the racecourse? Alstone isn't an issue, you would still be running an ECS across the mainline and now running it across two level crossings too. The GW terminators only sit in the platform for 4 or so minutes before moving off so don't cause an issue, the TfW services sit there for less. Doesn't help XC with their services from the north on race days either. Seems a lot of railway for not a lot back to me.
 

Brissle Girl

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It doesn't work as a P&R for Cheltenham either, as the station isn't in the centre.

A few years ago there was consideration to building another two platforms adjacent to the current station roughly where the old Honeybourne lines diverged. The thinking being it would remove a lot of the constraints described above by terminators and could be part funded by selling off the current sidings for housing. It would also enable additional terminating services, notably a second hourly service from Swindon. In think one industrial unit would need demolishing, and the car park would be replaced by a multi-storey car park (though I'm not sure how much space there would have been for that).

It struck me as a very sensible idea, but quickly died a death. I can't see this one going any further given it would mean track on a completely new alignment, so we are immediately into all the palaver of a T&W Act or DCO (probably the former, but I don't quite get how it's chosen which is which).
 

GlosRail

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In theory it's an excellent idea to create a Cheltenham Parkway station, as Cheltenham Spa station is often terrible for parking at.

It would also be great for Cheltenham races, and would connect directly to the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire railway.

I can't see it ever happening even though it would mostly be farm land that it would pass over.
 

The Planner

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In theory it's an excellent idea to create a Cheltenham Parkway station, as Cheltenham Spa station is often terrible for parking at.

It would also be great for Cheltenham races, and would connect directly to the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire railway.

I can't see it ever happening even though it would mostly be farm land that it would pass over.
Is this new Parkway on the new line? of what use is it to Cross Country if that is the case who have the most trains through the station?
 

GlosRail

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I'm reading it that a mainline station will be built where the current Cheltenham Racecourse heritage station is now. Cheltenham race course already has 1000's of parking spaces most of which are only used on race days.

Cross Country wouldn't call there, but the Transport for Wales, and GWR services that currently terminate at Cheltenham Spa from Swindon or London would instead terminate at Cheltenham race course which I expect would be renamed Cheltenham Parkway.

The station wouldn't be used for people going to Cheltenham, but for people going further afield like Swindon and London and Cardiff, for Bristol and Birmingham you would then have to change at Cheltenham Spa.

As the new line is proposed on a route that was never a railway I'm sure this won't ever get built, although as a local I hope it does happen.
 

30907

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Well, I've answered how it would be served.

And the station car park at Lansdown is woefully inadequate.
Apologies, I assumed the London service was a bonus.
So it would be a Parkway station for Gloucester and London rather than a Park and ride for Cheltenham, which is how I read the linked article.
The nearest equivalent would be Aylesbury Vale Parkway, which was built on an existing railway (which needed an upgrade to passenger standard)
 

Class 170101

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Personally I wouldn't terminate at Cheltenham Spa anyway but extend the London train to Worcester. Arguably the TfW service should either be extended to Worcester or handed over to XC to see if an extra service to New Street can be provided.
 

The Planner

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I think it wouldn't have a new station, it would use the Racecourse station and the Racecourse car park.
So presumably the Racecourse station would have to brought up to modern standards and not heritage? Im filing this one under "Crayola"
 

tigerroar

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Personally I wouldn't terminate at Cheltenham Spa anyway but extend the London train to Worcester. Arguably the TfW service should either be extended to Worcester or handed over to XC to see if an extra service to New Street can be provided.
The train I usually get back from London always goes to Shrub Hill. It has an additional stop at Maidenhead but doesn't call at Ashchurch. Why doesn't it call at Ashchurch?
 

PartyOperator

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It would perhaps make sense if extended to Bishops Cleeve, since the 'village’ has grown very rapidly in recent years and now has a population of around 17,000, with more houses still being built. Road congestion is an issue.
 

The Planner

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Are you being patronising there? Is there really any need to be so obnoxious?
Eh? working in the industry I get to see many of these sort of proposals, most of them quite literally drawn up with crayon on the back of a fag packet. What backing does it have, who is funding it, have NR considered it in a RUS/Route study? it loosely says it is will be a proposal in Gloucestershire's rail investment strategy or is the reality like the story quotes "negligible response since May 1 2018". It isn't my fault you don't like my opinion on it.
 

PartyOperator

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Eh? working in the industry I get to see many of these sort of proposals, most of them quite literally drawn up with crayon on the back of a fag packet. What backing does it have, who is funding it, have NR considered it in a RUS/Route study? it loosely says it is will be a proposal in Gloucestershire's rail investment strategy or is the reality like the story quotes "negligible response since May 1 2018". It isn't my fault you don't like my opinion on it.
I like the implication that it’s free money because Network Rail would pay for it… Currently seems more like an attempt by the heritage people to get someone else to build them a mainline connection with the supposed benefits invented to match.
 

py_megapixel

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I don't think this would be a particularly sensible idea at this point, and there are a number of reasons for this:
  • While Cheltenham does have a shortage of parking spaces, with nowhere obvious to put more, building a park & ride station with trains to Cheltenham Spa would be unlikely to attract a significant change in mode of transport because it is a 15 min walk into the town centre from the station.
  • With this in mind, the station would only see usage every few months, during racecourse events. There is already a perfectly good shuttle bus from Cheltenham Spa, so the only benefit would be a potential slight lessening in crowding.
  • With regards to the increase in capacity on the main line, there was a proposal a few years ago to lay new track and modify the platforms at Cheltenham Spa to provide bay platforms. Even this was abandoned because it was considered too expensive for the benefit derived.

If the goal is better service for race-goers, the money would be better spent expanding the existing station to cope properly with the massive numbers of passengers changing between train and bus.

If the goal is better service to Cheltenham town, then what is needed is a proper rail link to the town centre, which would be very tricky.

If the goal is greater mainline capacity, then it would be preferable to simply add bay platforms to Cheltenham Spa.
 

Wychwood93

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I like the implication that it’s free money because Network Rail would pay for it… Currently seems more like an attempt by the heritage people to get someone else to build them a mainline connection with the supposed benefits invented to match.
Correct. The quote from The Planner sums up reality - wherever we are, assuming a sort of local railway, we can easily say that 'if' so-and-so had remained open etc. Post-Beeching we ripped up tracks almost after the last train - see The World at War and the Nazis heading back west from the oncoming Russians. I know the last bit is a touch off-topic.....
 

ABB125

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Whilst building this new line would (I sincerely hope) be easier than reopening the old line through Cheltenham, I think that, should a new line (whether it's a connection to the racecourse from the mainline or an extension of the GWSR) be built, it should be along the old route, including a station that's actually in the town centre. (Although when I say "in", I actually mean "closer than the current one".) However, finding space for such a station would be a little problematic.
I first heard of this proposal in a copy of The Cornishman, the GWSR's magazine, along with a brief response from the GWSR board following its mention at a meeting. The response was, in my opinion, rather negative: whist I wouldn't expect something like "great idea, let's start next week", it was along the lines of "the railway will focus on consolidating current operations", which is fair enough following the extension to Broadway; however, something like "we will consider this as a long term future possibility" would be better.
Anyway, I can't remember the exact figure, but I'm pretty sure that the proposed cost of the link was less than£1 million. How much of the costs would be covered by volunteer time I'm not sure.
I await Network Rail's estimate of several hundred million pounds! :)
 

The Planner

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Anyway, I can't remember the exact figure, but I'm pretty sure that the proposed cost of the link was less than£1 million. How much of the costs would be covered by volunteer time I'm not sure.
I await Network Rail's estimate of several hundred million pounds! :)
A million? genuinely? for over a km of track, S&C and the associated signalling etc on the mainline? You have to love an optimist!
 

Dr Day

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I imagine the the thinking is more of a North Gloucestershire Parkway with an hourly (ish) service to London. For business and leisure travellers rather than daily commuters or race goers, although with the TfW train that would provide 2 tph to Gloucester so could serve some market there. Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa stations aren’t the easiest to drive to and fill up quickly so imagine some suppressed demand, particularly those spending a couple of nights in London.

Worcestershire Parkway will give an indication of the demand for this kind of thing.
 

ABB125

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A million? genuinely? for over a km of track, S&C and the associated signalling etc on the mainline? You have to love an optimist!
I don't know what methodology was used for the costings or what was included; I suspect mainline signalling and trackwork may have been overlooked. Presumably it would need a crossover from the north to southbound line, and a diverging set of points off the southbound line, plus a feather signal on the northbound line and 'normal' signal on the new track?
I'll see if I can find a copy of the magazine tomorrow.
 

ABB125

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I imagine the the thinking is more of a North Gloucestershire Parkway with an hourly (ish) service to London. For business and leisure travellers rather than daily commuters or race goers, although with the TfW train that would provide 2 tph to Gloucester so could serve some market there. Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa stations aren’t the easiest to drive to and fill up quickly so imagine some suppressed demand, particularly those spending a couple of nights in London.

Worcestershire Parkway will give an indication of the demand for this kind of thing.
That may well be the intention, but I would have thought that the best place to put a parkway station would be in the vicinity of the M5. Conveniently, the railway crosses the M5 just south of the junction with the A40. However, that is way too close to the existing Cheltenham station to justify CrossCountry calling at both (less than 2 miles away).
My preference for a north Gloucestershire parkway would be a significant increase in parking at Ashchurch, with an increased service. It could also be combined with the third platform proposal from the Friends of Ashchurch Station. The issues I can think of with this are mainly road related:
  • M5 junction 9 is heavily overloaded at peak times
  • The A46 is heavily overloaded at peak times
  • Where would the extra parking go? There is currently an "unused" small plot of land south of the car park which looks like it gives access to the running line, but using it would probably only generate around 25 spaces. Any significant increase in parking would need more storeys
Obviously I have no personal interest in the station whatsoever...:)
 

Brissle Girl

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I don't know what methodology was used for the costings or what was included; I suspect mainline signalling and trackwork may have been overlooked.
...and the cost of the legal processes (T&W Act), and the cost of purchasing the land, possibly by CPO, and the consultancy costs, and the...
 

S-Bahn

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Sounds like a non starter to me. The proposed link would only have a purpose on race days.

The 2 bay platforms idea at Cheltenham Spa had more merit.

Better to focus on electric bus and road connectivity for race days.
 

Puppetfinger

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My preference for a north Gloucestershire parkway would be a significant increase in parking at Ashchurch, with an increased service. It could also be combined with the third platform proposal from the Friends of Ashchurch Station. The issues I can think of with this are mainly road related:
  • M5 junction 9 is heavily overloaded at peak times
  • The A46 is heavily overloaded at peak times
  • Where would the extra parking go? There is currently an "unused" small plot of land south of the car park which looks like it gives access to the running line, but using it would probably only generate around 25 spaces. Any significant increase in parking would need more storeys
Obviously I have no personal interest in the station whatsoever...:)

Agreed. Ashchurch really is an untapped resource as far as I can see. Having said that, M5 junction 9 and the housing developments will only make the A46 worse, especially if the Army Camp ever does become housing.

In relation to Cheltenham races, once outside of peak hours, if the stopping service was there, then to ease congestion at Cheltenham then coaches from Ashchurch could be run to the racetrack.
 

Noddy

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It would perhaps make sense if extended to Bishops Cleeve, since the 'village’ has grown very rapidly in recent years and now has a population of around 17,000, with more houses still being built. Road congestion is an issue.

Agreed. While a parkway station at the Racecourse sounds interesting, I can’t see the finances working at all, especially if only used on race days. Like The Planner says-it seems a bit of a crayola idea. Extending the service to Bishops Cleeve would be a different game (You say the population is 17000 but I expect it’s closer to 20000 given all the new development-and there’s more to come). If you extended the Bristol-Gloucester trains there it would allow decent commuting possibilities along the M5 corridor Yate-Cam-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Racecourse-Bishops Cleeve.

However, a line to Bishops Cleeve would require a new station there too, and I doubt the GWSR would want to play either?

Incidentally, regarding Cheltenham station, while it clearly isn’t ideally placed it is only 10 minutes (or less if you’re fit) to the town centre on a bike, down a cycle track with no motor vehicles (until you’re into the town centre). It’s stikes me it would be an ideal candidate for a small bike hire scheme.
 

jayah

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Even with Boris's bottomless bucket bonanza, a mile of brand new railway for a Park and Ride might not make a business case - especially as you then have to ask who would use it and how it would be served.

More planning failure. The poor location of Spa station means even people coming from the centre will drive to it. But the biggest problem is the colossal out of town housing development at Bishops Cleeve and the congestion getting from there to the centre, not what is happening at Spa. A Cheltenham Racecourse Parkway would only tackle a tiny fraction of that problem.

There needs to be a scheme to get the formation between Cleeve and the centre used as a public transport corridor and as a second priority a station to get the other large developments around Hatherley and Churchdown connected to the railway, which runs right through the middle of both.
 
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