Travel Between London Terminals During Disruption

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

Later today I'm making a journey from Stevenage to Exeter St Davids. As it happens I've got a trough Advance ticket as this was the cheapest option.

The itinerary tells me to get a Thameslink train to Farringdon, change to the Underground and go to Paddington for the GWR train to Exeter. All very well except there are no Underground trains from Farringdon today due to engineering work.

The alternative way I'd normally get to Paddington is to take the Victoria Line from Finsbury Park or Kings Cross to Oxford Circus and change to the Bakerloo Line. But the Bakerloo's not operating today due to strike action.

Thankfully I know my way round London so I'll change to the Central Line at Oxford Circus, travel to Lancaster Gate from where it is a short walk to Paddington. Lancaster Gate is a recognised interchange station for Paddington so all's well.

I've had absolutely no contact from the ticket retailer about the potential disruption to my journey. How hard would it be for ticket retailers to contact customers who have booked tickets in advance and notify them of potential disruption due to underground engineering and strike action? Should they be required to do this.

It doesn't worry me too much as I'm in the know on this sort of stuff but it has the potential to cause much stress to a 'normal' passenger. I wonder how many people will get charged a new fare for missing their booked train today? All of this has the potential to give the railway a bad name.

Airlines notify me if there's a change or potential delay to my journey. WHy can't the railway do this?

RailUK Forums

Clip · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
Airlines notify me if there's a change or potential delay to my journey. WHy can't the railway do this?

Its just giving you the fastest itinerary when you booked. It doesnt really matter which way that you cross london just that you do. Im not sure that railways with multi mode ticketing are quite the same as airlines where you mainly dont change modes

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
Airlines notify me if there's a change or potential delay to my journey. WHy can't the railway do this?

To be fair, if you have a ticket involving going into Heathrow and out of Gatwick, which you do get, I bet they don't. That's closer to your example.

That said, I do think such notifications would be good. Perhaps a retailer could take this on as a selling point?

Haywain · 22 Feb 2020

The railway timetable database has very limited information for underground journeys, in the for if fixed links. These are, essentially, blocks of time that take no account of underground timetables and therefore don’t ‘know’ what is and isn’t running. In view of this, any attempt to keep travellers informed based on tickets purchased would be something of a scattergun approach.

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2020

Haywain said:
The railway timetable database has very limited information for underground journeys, in the for if fixed links. These are, essentially, blocks of time that take no account of underground timetables and therefore don’t ‘know’ what is and isn’t running. In view of this, any attempt to keep travellers informed based on tickets purchased would be something of a scattergun approach.

Though it would be possible to send something saying "please check, your journey may be affected" in the event of any Tube disruption in Zone 1 that day, or something.

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

How hard would it be to identify an email to customers whose itinerary includes a change to or from the Underground at Paddington (and Marylebone as they're also affected by the Bakerloo Line strike with no obvious alternative)

The railway needs to look for quick and easy solutions, not hide behind a 'we can't do it because' attitude.

The railway charges top dollar prices for many fares and it's not unreasonable to expect passengers to be given a basic degree of advice when there's known disruption.

Haywain · 22 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Though it would be possible to send something saying "please check, your journey may be affected" in the event of any Tube disruption in Zone 1 that day, or something.

I don’t disagree, just pointing out that specifics would be quite difficult as things currently stand.

Llanigraham · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
How hard would it be to identify an email to customers whose itinerary includes a change to or from the Underground at Paddington (and Marylebone as they're also affected by the Bakerloo Line strike with no obvious alternative)

The railway needs to look for quick and easy solutions, not hide behind a 'we can't do it because' attitude.

The railway charges top dollar prices for many fares and it's not unreasonable to expect passengers to be given a basic degree of advice when there's known disruption.

That presumes that everybody buys their tickets electronically; many don't, and many use third party retailers as well.

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

An update.

I caught an earlier train from Stevenage than shown on my itinerary, changed at Finsbury Park but Oxford Circus was closed due to overcrowding so I was unable to change to the Central Line there. I changed at Green Park, took the Jubilee Line to Bond Street and joined the Central Line there. All the Underground trains I travelled on were proper wedged. I arrived at Paddington with only a couple of minutes to spare.

I had a chat with the Guard on the train about whether GWR management had given any guidance about what to do with people who missed their trains today due to delays on the Underground. I was told that nothing had been issued but she was showing discretion and said there were a number of passengers onboard who had missed the previous train.

Good to see the guard on the train I’m on giving excellent service but very poor that GWR management appear not to have issued any guidance to their staff.

Paul Kelly · 22 Feb 2020

Haywain said:
The railway timetable database has very limited information for underground journeys, in the for if fixed links. These are, essentially, blocks of time that take no account of underground timetables and therefore don’t ‘know’ what is and isn’t running.

It's not quite as bad as that makes it sound. They do crudely take account of Underground timetables by allowing longer "blocks of time" in the early mornings and late evenings, and sometimes they are indeed switched off altogether between certain dates or on certain days of the week when there are planned closures of various Underground lines. E.g. Cannon Street has 56 fixed links next Saturday, but only 24 next Sunday when the Underground station is closed.

If Farringdon was a planned closure then the fixed links could have been modified in advance to take account of that. I don't know who is responsible for that.

najaB · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
How hard would it be to identify an email to customers whose itinerary includes a change to or from the Underground at Paddington (and Marylebone as they're also affected by the Bakerloo Line strike with no obvious alternative)

Well, for one thing there will be a significant number of passengers for whom the railway has no email address.

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

Of course, you cannot cover every eventuality but for anything purchased, which I strongly suspect is the majority of book ahead long distance travel, the railway’ will have an email address and itinerary.

SNCF managed to send me an email when one of their trains I was due to travel on was cancelled due to the strikes. No idea how they had my details as I booked through Eurostar, but with a bit of will it must be possible to do something.

Mike99 · 22 Feb 2020

I'm just politely asking, was the Circle/Metropolitan (or whatever its called now) an option from Kings Cross to Paddington, I haven't looked at the TfL site to see if it's running though,

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

Mike99 said:
I'm just politely asking, was the Circle/Metropolitan (or whatever its called now) an option from Kings Cross to Paddington, I haven't looked at the TfL site to see if it's running though,

Circle/H&C closed for engineering. Strike on the Bakerloo.

Mike99 · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
Circle/H&C closed for engineering. Strike on the Bakerloo.

OK, I noticed you said nothing from Farringdon just wondered if it was running from Kings Cross, might account why everything else you travelled on was rammed

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

Ordinarily the change at Farringdon is sensible if Thameslink is operating normally as it’s an easier change and avoids the need to walk the length of St Pancras.

The problem is that an unsuspecting passenger, following the itinerary given to them when they booked their ticket (which is exactly what the rail industry wants them to do) would arrive at Farringdon to find no Underground service whatsoever.

Perhaps I should have travelled that way to see exactly what would have happened...

najaB · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
Of course, you cannot cover every eventuality but for anything purchased, which I strongly suspect is the majority of book ahead long distance travel, the railway’ will have an email address and itinerary.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of tickets are purchased online vs at stations, etc and what percentage of those involve travel on the TOC on whose website the ticket was purchased.

Hadders · 22 Feb 2020

I agree this would be interesting however I cannot understand why any ticket selling website cannot inform customers who have booked through them.

As it happens I booked my ticket through Chiltern, even though I wasn’t travelling with them. Chiltern issued me with an itinerary involving travel between Farringdon and Paddington which it isn’t possible to do today. Why can’t Chiltern contact me to tell me about this?

sheff1 · 22 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
I agree this would be interesting however I cannot understand why any ticket selling website cannot inform customers who have booked through them.

I think you hit on it in an earlier post - the prevelant 'we can't do it because' attitude. A typical 'reason', often repeated on here, is "if it can't be done for everyone, we should do it for no one".

I have received exactly the sort of email you describe from both SJ (Sweden) & CP (Portugal) when changes happened after I had booked - engineering work and strike action respectively. I have never received such an email from a UK TOC from whom I have purchased a ticket prior to changes.

Llanigraham · 22 Feb 2020

sheff1 said:
I think you hit on it in an earlier post - the prevelant 'we can't do it because' attitude. A typical 'reason', often repeated on here, is "if it can't be done for everyone, we should do it for no one".

I have received exactly the sort of email you describe from both SJ (Sweden) & CP (Portugal) when changes happened after I had booked - engineering work and strike action respectively. I have never received such an email from a UK TOC from whom I have purchased a ticket prior to changes.

Perhaps you would like to explain how, if I book a set of through tickets to Euston from TfW, Avanti are to email me of a delay on their service?
And especially if I have bought my tickets from Gareth at Newtown Station Travel.

Hadders · 23 Feb 2020

TfW could email you if there is known disruption, like there is on the Underground this weekend. After all they would have details of you and your journey.

Gareth at Newtown station wouldn’t have your details so wouldn’t be able to contact you but that shouldn’t mean that where it can be done it shouldn’t be done.

alistairlees · 23 Feb 2020

Llanigraham said:
Perhaps you would like to explain how, if I book a set of through tickets to Euston from TfW, Avanti are to email me of a delay on their service?
And especially if I have bought my tickets from Gareth at Newtown Station Travel.

Very few people buy from Newtown station. A lot of people buy online. For all those who buy online, this problem could be solved. Those who buy from ticket offices in advance of travel could be advised to check before travelling. Most purchases from ticket offices are for travel today or tomorrow anyway, so it really isn’t that much of a problem.

RT4038 · 23 Feb 2020

Of course it could be done, but it will require extra staff to keep up to date, and more importantly, a huge cost in development. This would not receive priority as it would not be seen as revenue generating compared to developing other features.

Hadders · 23 Feb 2020

RT4038 said:
Of course it could be done, but it will require extra staff to keep up to date, and more importantly, a huge cost in development. This would not receive priority as it would not be seen as revenue generating compared to developing other features.

A ‘we can’t do it because...’ reason.

I’d have thought most of this could be automated once the relevant IT development has been done. The information is already there, it just needs joining together.

The railway manages to send me lots of emails encouraging me to visit places, download apps etc. It seems that the industry loses interest in passengers once they’ve purchased a ticket.

Once a passenger has a bad experience they’re less likely to return. The railway doesn’t seem to realise this.

Airlines (and even Eurostar) manage this. Why can’t the train companies?

najaB · 23 Feb 2020

sheff1 said:
I have received exactly the sort of email you describe from both SJ (Sweden) & CP (Portugal) when changes happened after I had booked

The big difference is integration. The model of rail privatisation that we've gone with has resulted in a mishmash of different operators, with the consequent issues surrounding data sharing. Not to say that it can't be done, but, as @RT4038 says:

RT4038 said:
This would not receive priority as it would not be seen as revenue generating compared to developing other features.

30907 · 23 Feb 2020

Hadders said:
Airlines (and even Eurostar) manage this. Why can’t the train companies?

I've never had an email from an airline warning me of problems beyond the airport boundary/access, but perhaps I don't fly often enough.

That said, there is a simple solution, though.
The booking confirmation could routinely say "Cross-London travel by Underground: please check your route before you travel on www.tfl.gov.uk in case of engineering works as our systems may not reflect these changes."
DB have a similar disclaimer, though in their case it refers to their own services which are routinely changed at short notice.

najaB · 23 Feb 2020

30907 said:
The booking confirmation could routinely say "Cross-London travel by Underground: please check your route before you travel on www.tfl.gov.uk in case of engineering works as our systems may not reflect these changes."

This, plus a link on their own website to the TfL service information pages would go a long way to resolving the issue.

arb · 23 Feb 2020

Why did the itinerary show a change at Farringdon in the first place, and not at King's Cross St Pancras? There are more underground lines to choose from at King's Cross St Pancras than at Farringdon (so more chance of still being able to complete the journey if there is engineering work, without the need to tell the passenger anything has changed). It's a shorter journey time, both on the train to London, and on the tube journey, if using King's Cross St Pancras. It seems like a much better choice of station to show in itineraries than Farringdon?

alistairlees · 23 Feb 2020

najaB said:
The big difference is integration. The model of rail privatisation that we've gone with has resulted in a mishmash of different operators, with the consequent issues surrounding data sharing. Not to say that it can't be done, but, as @RT4038 says:

All retailers (whether train operator or third party) have access to the same information regarding scheduled train times, rescheduled train times, and disruption information, via the same few data feeds (namely the DTD feed and the Darwin feed) that would enable the things that Hadders and I are suggesting are done, to be done. I don't think the development cost need be huge, although handling the many edge cases (especially where TOCs / Network Rail are used to continually changing data right up to departure because it doesn't currently matter) is a challenge.

The idea that lack of integration / many TOCs is a barrier to this being done is simply not true. The data is (are?) well integrated. TOCs don't have special secret data that's unique to them - it all has to go into data sets that are available to all.

It's not really a problem to do it.

najaB · 23 Feb 2020

alistairlees said:
TOCs don't have special secret data that's unique to them - it all has to go into data sets that are available to all.

I'm very much aware of the data that's available on the operations and infrastructure side of things. However, on the customer PII side of things it very much is secret and unique to the TOC that has collected it. There are potential data-sharing issues there - are they insurmountable? No. But they do exist.

Travel Between London Terminals During Disruption

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Verified Rep - BR Fares

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member