Penalty fare notice following advice from train conductor

js1000 said:

I would go along with this sadly. The culture instilled by Arriva is wrong - discretion appears to never be applied. But then the whole culture is completely wrong at Northern at all levels anyway so we shouldn't be surprised.

Click to expand...

gray1404 said:

Why has Bradford Foster Square been mentioned?

Click to expand...

gray1404 said:

Am I missing something here, you travelled from Frizinghall to Leeds. Why has Bradford Foster Square been mentioned?

If you travelled on a direct service to Leeds and didn't need to change trains then its not relivant. However, if you had to change trains there AND there was sufficient time for you to use facilities there (ticket machine and booking office if open) WITHOUT you missing the next train to Leeds, then you would be required to use those facilities to purchase your ticket.

Click to expand...

nlt said:

May I suggest to the OP that you contact the Yorkshire Evening Post and the Bradford Telegraph and Argus. Also send an email to the Leeds councillor Carmel Harrison who has taken an interest in the activities of the revenue protection staff at Leeds station on behalf of constituents who use Woodlesford station. (It would probably be a good idea to pay the Penalty Fare, also make a complaint, and threaten to take them to the small claims court if you don't get your money back.)

Click to expand...

gray1404 said:

I would suggest responding to their most recent letter with the following:

Dear Sir/Madam

Your Ref: X

I write in response to your letter dated 19 February 2020. I ask that you consider the following in mitigation and withdraw this case.

I attempted to purchase my ticket for my journey from Frizinghall to Leeds on 27 January 2020. However the ticket machine at Frizinghall was out of service due to vandalism. There is no ticket office or second ticket machine at Frizinghall. I therefore did not have opportunity to purchase before boarding.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage stupulates in these circumstances customers are permitted to start their journey and purchase at the first opportunity. The guard on the Northern service said his ticket machine was unable to sell the ticket I required and I should purchase it at Leeds. Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, this constitutes permission from an Authorised Person.

On arrival at Leeds I immediately attempted to purchase the ticket I required as I had not yet had an opportunity. Disappointingly the staff member I spoke to failed to understand this and would not allow me to purchase a ticket.

As there were no working ticket facilities at Frizinghall, I was instructed by the guard to purchase a ticket at Leeds and I did attempt to do so on arrival I do not believe any action under The Regulation of Railways Act or Railway Bylaws would be successful. I would therefore request no further action be taken in this matter.

I trust you will understand the rights afforded to me as a passenger to purchase a ticket were not followed on this occasion. I trust therefore that no further action will be taken.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully

X

I would send this in the post to them tomorrow (Monday) morning. The Out of Court Settlement they have offered to you still remains open until the week after.

Click to expand...

gray1404 said:

However the ticket machine at Frizinghall was out of service due to vandalism. There is no ticket office or second ticket machine on the Leeds-bound platform at Frizinghall. I therefore did not have opportunity to purchase before boarding.

As there were no working ticket facilities at Frizinghall, I was instructed by the guard to purchase a ticket at Leeds and I did attempt to do so on arrival I do not believe I am guilty of the alleged offence any action under The Regulation of Railways Act or Railway Bylaws would be successful. I would therefore request no further action be taken in this matter.

I trust you will understand The rights afforded to me as a passenger to purchase a ticket were not followed on this occasion. I trust therefore that no further action will be taken.

Click to expand...

30907 said:

Frizinghall does have a second machine, on the Bradford platform, but it is nearly 1/4 mile away, and the OP could not reasonably be expected to walk there and back.
I suggest amending the letter to be absolutely accurate (if you wish, add what you wish about the other platform).
I have made a further amendment later on, to cut out redundant text and to strengthen the reply - you don't want to express an opinion about court procedure, you want to make it clear that there is no case to answer (and at least imply that you will contest it).

Click to expand...

John837102 said:

So the other day I was making my daily commute to university (From Frizinghall station to Leeds). As a student I am able to use a ‘metro-card’ which, like a rail-card, allows me to purchase weekly and monthly tickets at a cheaper price. This card needs to be topped up by the ticket machines at the station which I normally do. I want to point out that the station does not have a ticket booth/office so there are no personnel at the station. However, the machine was out of order meaning that I could not top up my card at that moment nor buy a ticket. But I thought to myself that I’d just top my card up at the destination as they have a ticket machine before the barriers, which can then allow me to get through the barriers.

So I boarded the train and thought not much of it. Halfway to my destination, I saw the train conductor pacing up and down, asking if anyone needed to buy a ticket. So for safe measure I told the train conductor that I have not got a ticket but I would like to top up my card. He replied saying that I will need to purchase a ticket as he cannot top my card up. I then explained to him that the machine at my station was out of order and that if it was functioning I would not need to spend extra on a ticket as purchasing my monthly pass would cover the journey. He then said that I will need to speak with the ticket officers at the station and explain my situation to them. Please note that at no point did I refuse to purchase a ticket from him.

I thought to myself that I'll just stick with my original plan of topping up my card at the ticket machine, before the barriers, as it would not make a difference. However, at my arrival, I saw that this ticket machine was also out of order. So I made my way to the ticket office but there were two uniformed staff waiting outside of it. I explained my situation to the officer at the ticketing booth which the two uniformed staff overheard. They then intervened in my conversation and asked to see my metro card.

I handed over my metro card which they made checks on and found it was last valid on the 10th of December 2019. He made a point that I’ve had around a month and 2 weeks to top this card up. I replied saying that I did not need a full monthly pass then as it was the Christmas holidays. He then asked if I travelled during the time my M card was invalid which I replied yes to, but I only used return tickets. He followed up by asking why did I not top up my m-card at that point. I replied saying I did not know when I would need a monthly pass next as my university time table had not been published. His colleague then made a point and asked why I did not use the ticket machine from the other platform to which I replied I was running late from my train so I did not have time to go to the next platform and back. (But honestly, I did not think of this because I never use that platform).

They then took my details down and let me through the barriers. I managed to top my card up which would not have made a difference to northern rail if I did it at the station I came from or the station I was at. I had every intention to make a payment and if the train conductor told me that I had to purchase a ticket otherwise ill be fined because I'm breaking the law, I would’ve felt a little ripped off but defo would have gotten over it.

I have now received a fixed penalty notice for £94.50 which explains that I had the intent to fare dodge, but I was just following what the train conductor had advised me to do.

So do you think I am in the wrong here??

Click to expand...

gray1404 said:

Northern are in the wrong here. There were no functioning ticket issuing facilities at your starting station and the member of staff on board the train was unable to sell the ticket you wanted. Therefore when you arrived at your destination station, that was your first opportunity to purchase and you were deprived of that opportunity. The fact that your smart card hasn't been used since December is irrelevant. Nor are you required to top it up days in advance. What matters and only what matters here is the journey on the day in question and, as I have set out, you did not have an opportunity to purchase.

Click to expand...

John837102 said:

Update:
After emailing northern rail the mitigating circumstances, they have decided to refund me £90 out of the £94.50 (the £4.50 single fare which I did not pay and in my opinion rightly so but that doesn't matter now). I would like to express my appreciation for those who helped me as I was very clueless, so thank you. I will leave this post on here so people who find themselves in a similar position can find guidance. Thank you again.

Click to expand...

John837102 said:

Update:
After emailing northern rail the mitigating circumstances, they have decided to refund me £90 out of the £94.50 (the £4.50 single fare which I did not pay and in my opinion rightly so but that doesn't matter now). I would like to express my appreciation for those who helped me as I was very clueless, so thank you. I will leave this post on here so people who find themselves in a similar position can find guidance. Thank you again.

Click to expand...