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Hydrogen fuelled units

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silverfoxcc

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Apologies if there is a thread, but i have been told that these are in existence and will be in main line use in two years time.
I read RM and Rail but cannot recall seeing anything,
Given the XR and Greta love ins, surely there swould have been a big TArrraRA about this?
Or has my brain blanked it all out?
 
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Domh245

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There are several different prototypes for hydrogen fuelled converted MUs from different parties, Porterbrook have a converted 319, Vivarail are proposing a D-train powered one, and Eversholt/Alstom are proposing a class 321 converted. There is only a commitment for EMR to trial such a unit rather than any firm commitments for their operation, but there are no more details on what unit will be trialled that I'm aware of!
 

James James

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Not in the UK, but I believe Alstom already have one unit operating in Germany (around Bremerhaven), with a larger fleet due to arrive next year.

Stadler are also edging on the fun: first trial unit in Austria starts this year, and full (but small) fleet by 2022, plus they have some orders for other locations - although I believe the Austrian ones are narrow gauge. In theory, switching a diesel/bi-mode flirt to hydrogen wouldn't be complicated conversion (if they can just replace components in the diesel module), so it wouldn't be hard to convert one of the british fleets in future - but I can't imagine anyone would be planning that until hydrogen has been proven.
 

HSTEd

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It's just a bunch of politicians desperate for a miracle technology that will get them out of having to actually spend money on electrification.
 

43096

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It's just a bunch of politicians desperate for a miracle technology that will get them out of having to actually spend money on electrification.
Nail hit firmly on the head.

What they ignore, of course, are the additional through-life costs of the various "bionic duckweed" technologies that they think are a solution - hydrogen is an expensive fuel to produce both in terms of costs and environmental impact (which rather defeats the point of it). The only real answer is to get the wires up.
 

InTheEastMids

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It's just a bunch of politicians desperate for a miracle technology that will get them out of having to actually spend money on electrification.

+1

Also some significant industries that see hydrogen as a way to remain relevant - particularly the gas industry that sees 'blue hydrogen' (H2 from natural gas with carbon capture) as the route to avoid the death of their industry.

I'm not saying 'there will be no hydrogen' but the glacial progress on carbon capture, efficiencyof green hydrogen (from renewable electricity) and challenges around both trains and infrastructure mean it's an astronomical distance from being the cheap drop in replacement for diesel that many would like it to be, in order to avoid investment in wires
 

HSTEd

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+1

Also some significant industries that see hydrogen as a way to remain relevant - particularly the gas industry that sees 'blue hydrogen' (H2 from natural gas with carbon capture) as the route to avoid the death of their industry.

I'm not saying 'there will be no hydrogen' but the glacial progress on carbon capture, efficiencyof green hydrogen (from renewable electricity) and challenges around both trains and infrastructure mean it's an astronomical distance from being the cheap drop in replacement for diesel that many would like it to be, in order to avoid investment in wires

This is just like the endless consultations they hold on "market mechanisms" for district heating systems.
They are desperate to find a way to make the private sector build them and don't want to admit that the private sector will never go for something so capital intensive.

Hell the current model for gas and electricity would not have built out those systems today, let alone for something even more capital intensive!
 

James James

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Nail hit firmly on the head.

What they ignore, of course, are the additional through-life costs of the various "bionic duckweed" technologies that they think are a solution - hydrogen is an expensive fuel to produce both in terms of costs and environmental impact (which rather defeats the point of it). The only real answer is to get the wires up.
I disagree on hydrogen having bad environmental impact. Wires are more efficient, certainly - but if you are in a place with lots of renewables then hydrogen is cheap (environmentally) to produce, and there are some lines where wires just aren't the right solution (certain scenic areas, or long sparse lines with infrequent service). Of course, for most of the UK's needs, that doesn't fit - but there are places where Hydrogen could be the optimal solution.

I do agree that they should focus on the low-hanging fruit (from an environmental persepctive) of electrification first.
 

Grumpy Git

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It's just a bunch of politicians desperate for a miracle technology that will get them out of having to actually spend money on electrification.

Spot on.

I'd be interested to know how much money was spent on Graylings "bi-mode" conversions? I wonder how many miles of wire that would have put up? Also remember once the wires are up, they're there for every (electric) train.
 

Clip

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It's just a bunch of politicians desperate for a miracle technology that will get them out of having to actually spend money on electrification.


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-launches-worlds-first-hydrogen-powered-train


Germany has rolled out the world’s first hydrogen-powered train, signalling the start of a push to challenge the might of polluting diesel trains with costlier but more eco-friendly technology.

Two bright blue Coradia iLint trains, built by French TGV-maker Alstom, on Monday began running a 62 mile (100km) route between the towns and cities of Cuxhaven, Bremerhaven, Bremervoerde and Buxtehude in northern Germany – a stretch normally plied by diesel trains.

“The world’s first hydrogen train is entering into commercial service and is ready for serial production,” Alstom CEO Henri Poupart-Lafarge said at an unveiling ceremony in Bremervoerde, the station where the trains will be refuelled with hydrogen.

Alstom has said it plans to deliver another 14 of the zero-emissions trains to Lower Saxony state by 2021, while other German states have also expressed an interest.

Hydrogen trains are equipped with fuel cells that produce electricity through a combination of hydrogen and oxygen, a process that leaves steam and water as the only emissions. Excess energy is stored in ion lithium batteries on board the train.

The Coradia iLint trains can run for about 600 miles (1,000km) on a single tank of hydrogen, similar to the range of diesel trains.

Alstom is betting on the technology as a greener, quieter alternative to diesel on non-electrified railway lines – an attractive prospect to many German cities scrambling to combat air pollution.

“Sure, buying a hydrogen train is somewhat more expensive than a diesel train, but it is cheaper to run,” Stefan Schrank, the project’s manager at Alstom, said.

Other countries are also looking into hydrogen trains, Alstom said, including Britain, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Italy and Canada. In France, the government has already said it wants the first hydrogen train to be on the rails by 2022.

Also didn't Chiltern have some involvement with one of their locos going to be hydrogen powered too?
 
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