Confiscated Railcard

Adam Williams · 13 Feb 2020

sheff1 said:
How do they withdraw a ticket or Railcard which is displayed electronically ?

They can't really, can they?

This is the difference between something digital (designed to have a proper verification method involving scanning a barcode which generally doesn't inconvenience legitimate customers) and the physical alternative, though, where things are done much less elegantly.

Fare-Cop said:
They are able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard in those circumstances and their working instructions make that expressly clear.

It being written down in an "expressly clear procedure" doesn't make it any less of a poor user experience if you end up in this situation through no fault of your own, though!

RailUK Forums

sheff1 · 13 Feb 2020

Adam Williams said:
They can't really, can they?

Well Fare-Cop , who is knowledgeable on such things, said they were able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard. I am sure they will be back in due course with info on the method used when the ticket and/or Railcard is displayed electronically.

Saperstein · 13 Feb 2020

Interesting one.

I guess the police could seize a device (stolen pass credit/debit card ect) but not guards AFAIK.

Who would insure a top dollar device should it allegedly be damaged in the railways care?

Doubt the TOC would.

Saperstein.

Bletchleyite · 13 Feb 2020

An e-ticket or electronic Railcard can presumably be cancelled at the railway end which is equivalent to withdrawing it.

crablab · 13 Feb 2020

They could issue Railcards with a chip to allow some form of authentication.

Or let you 'pick up' a Railcard and store it on your bank issued card.

Haywain · 14 Feb 2020

sheff1 said:
Well Fare-Cop , who is knowledgeable on such things, said they were able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard. I am sure they will be back in due course with info on the method used when the ticket and/or Railcard is displayed electronically.

With barcoded tickets and railcards the validity or otherwise can be established on the spot which removes the need to withdraw them for investigation.

Fare-Cop · 14 Feb 2020

Yes, revenue protection staff can withdraw any paper ticket and many smartcard types, but I agree the matter of digital Railcards held on an individuals personal phone or other device does present a unique problem.

It is easy for the RPI / Guard to take an evidential quality photo of the alleged invalid Railcard, with date and time and confirm that the photograph is a true likeness of the holder, but the staff member could not retain the phone etc. Taking that action along with conducting an interview under caution and submitting a statement in the usual way would be the adopted practice in most cases.

If a Police Officer were also present s/he might be persuaded that the offence were serious enough to consider an offence under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act and to seize the device, but there would have to be a substantial value to the loss to even consider that.

I think that a policy of ALWAYS prosecuting such cases where the evidence is irrefutable might be sufficient deterrent to minimise further misuse, but it is a challenge

ashkeba · 15 Feb 2020

krus_aragon said:
The cynic in me could still see some problems, though. What if this dodgy-looking card was made with a scanner and and ID card printer?

Then their ID card printer has a fault? Mine would struggle to produce anything as dodgy looking as the actual Railcard I had last year.

krus_aragon · 15 Feb 2020

ashkeba said:
Then their ID card printer has a fault? Mine would struggle to produce anything as dodgy looking as the actual Railcard I had last year.

I was meaning to suggest that some nefarious might have taken a genuine railcard, scanned it, and started printing (perhaps selling) duplicates.

Roast Veg · 23 Feb 2020

I have now been served a letter from the dreaded Transport Investigations Limited advising me that I did not travel with a valid ticket on the 8th February, and that they intend to take further action if I do not mitigate against this. Prosecution has been threatened as the next stage in their procedure.

I am absolutely livid. Neither my ticket nor my original Railcard have been returned to me. What evidence can I provide to TIL that would prevent them proceeding?

clagmonster · 23 Feb 2020

I would write back with any proof of purchase of tickets and the railcard, the communication from railcards and copies of the reprinted railcard and zero fare receipt for the confiscated ticket. Inform them that the fare for your journey was paid before travel and that you showed a valid ticket and railcard on demand, both of which were retained for inspection.

Roast Veg · 24 Feb 2020

Thank you, I will be doing so.

I have also opened my complaint with XC and await their response.

Fare-Cop · 24 Feb 2020

clagmonster said:
I would write back with any proof of purchase of tickets and the railcard, the communication from railcards and copies of the reprinted railcard and zero fare receipt for the confiscated ticket. Inform them that the fare for your journey was paid before travel and that you showed a valid ticket and railcard on demand, both of which were retained for inspection.

Given that it will almost certainly be an XC staff member who withdrew the Railcard and then XC administration checked and sent it to their agents for further action, it would seem likely that XC support that action.

Roast Veg said:
I have now been served a letter from the dreaded Transport Investigations Limited advising me that I did not travel with a valid ticket on the 8th February, and that they intend to take further action if I do not mitigate against this. Prosecution has been threatened as the next stage in their procedure.

I am absolutely livid. Neither my ticket nor my original Railcard have been returned to me. What evidence can I provide to TIL that would prevent them proceeding?

If the company believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute, they will be required to retain anything that was withdrawn and present this as part of the evidence that they intend to rely on.

It is normal practice for any revenue staff to retain any paper railcard (or ticket) that they believe to be invalid and their procedural instructions advise this. Indeed, it would be essential to be able to produce said 'evidence' in any further action.

I can only think that they must believe for some reason, from investigation of the the evidence and report sent to them by XC, that the Railcard must be a fake, possibly along the lines suggested by krus_aragon at post #39.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't complain, by all means continue, I'm just explaining the likely position.

.

some bloke · 24 Feb 2020

Can TIL not just contact the Railcard office, confirm that a Railcard was issued to the OP, and let the OP know the matter is closed by the end of the day?

Roast Veg said:
Railcard have agreed to send me a replacement free of charge, and I understand I can use the confirmation email in the interim.

ainsworth74 · 24 Feb 2020

Fare-Cop said:
I can only think that they must believe for some reason, from investigation of the the evidence and report sent to them by XC, that the Railcard must be a fake, possibly along the lines suggested by krus_aragon at post #39.

In which case producing evidence that the railcard is legitimate and that the OP is the person named on the railcard should swiftly dispose of the issue with TIL you would hope and leaving a robust complaint to XC to be dealt with.

krus_aragon · 24 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
Can TIL not just contact the Railcard office, confirm that a Railcard was issued to the OP, and let the OP know the matter is closed by the end of the day?

That would be a sensible outcome, if TiL can be persuaded to do so (or they suddenly decide to of their own volition).

some bloke · 24 Feb 2020

krus_aragon said:
That would be a sensible outcome, if TiL can be persuaded to do so (or they suddenly decide to of their own volition).

If they delay, you could contact Railcard - since they have said the email is enough proof; and if necessary XC management and Transport Focus.

Fare-Cop · 24 Feb 2020

some bloke said:
Can TIL not just contact the Railcard office, confirm that a Railcard was issued to the OP, and let the OP know the matter is closed by the end of the day?

Accepting the post where the OP says

Roast Veg said:
Assuming this is the case, then the issue is now resolved, as Railcard have agreed to send me a replacement free of charge, and I understand I can use the confirmation email in the interim.

I suggest that the simplest thing here is for the OP to ask the Railcard Records Office to send both XC and TIL an email (together) confirming this is what they have said to be the case.

Once that is completed, the OP will be free to pursue any complaint with justification

.

Roast Veg · 24 Feb 2020

Fare-Cop said:
I suggest that the simplest thing here is for the OP to ask the Railcard Records Office to send both XC and TIL an email (together) confirming this is what they have said to be the case.

Once that is completed, the OP will be free to pursue any complaint with justification

Thanks, I have sent an email to them now. I will be putting together all evidence to send to TIL this evening.

Roast Veg · 24 Feb 2020

I have now sent an email to Transport Investigations Limited, since their website appears to be completely broken. I have also filled out my delay repay, including my TIL reference, in case it helps.

Fare-Cop · 24 Feb 2020

Roast Veg said:
I have now sent an email to Transport Investigations Limited, since their website appears to be completely broken.

It helps to make sure that your email has gone to the right department

I just looked at their website and it appears to be working perfectly at http://transportinvestigations.co.uk/

If you use the 'Contact' tab, which opens on that link there is a direct email capture for their Fares Recovery & Prosecutions dept.

Realfish · 25 Feb 2020

Roast Veg said:
I have now sent an email to Transport Investigations Limited, since their website appears to be completely broken. I have also filled out my delay repay, including my TIL reference, in case it helps.

Good luck and best wishes with this. From your account of what happened and the response of the Railcard issuer, you have nothing to worry about. Sadly though, Transport Investigations Limited, are something of an oxymoron - they don't seem to do much in the way of investigating. TIL's MO seems to be to receive a case and threaten prosecution, with the offer (demand) of making it go away for what seems like an £ inflated sum, that's if any recent cases on here are typical. It sounds like a good business model (for them).

In this case it looks as though you've been left to do the gathering of evidence, not them - if anyone needs investigating it's TIL.

Roast Veg · 25 Feb 2020

Fare-Cop said:
It helps to make sure that your email has gone to the right department

Ah I did not see this specific address, but I have had a reply suggesting that it has been forwarded on.

Fare-Cop said:
I just looked at their website and it appears to be working perfectly at http://transportinvestigations.co.uk/

If you use the 'Contact' tab, which opens on that link there is a direct email capture for their Fares Recovery & Prosecutions dept.

Unfortunately, their login process is giving me an http 500 error when attempting to login with my provided credentials. They also do not have a valid SSL certificate, and I would not be prepared to enter confidential information on an unsecured website.

some bloke · 25 Feb 2020

The link "Email us" at the bottom left of the contact page is to [email protected] .

Not specifically a prosecution department, but may be useful for a record of having sent an email (rather than relying on the form); asking the correct email address; confirming that an email has been forwarded to the right people; or passing on to the Railcard office.

CentralTrainer · 25 Feb 2020

Roast Veg said:
Ah I did not see this specific address, but I have had a reply suggesting that it has been forwarded on.

Unfortunately, their login process is giving me an http 500 error when attempting to login with my provided credentials. They also do not have a valid SSL certificate, and I would not be prepared to enter confidential information on an unsecured website.

GDPR implications on that maybe?

I wonder what the ICO would say about that being brought to their attention?

crablab · 26 Feb 2020

CentralTrainer said:
I wonder what the ICO would say about that being brought to their attention?

The ICO would add it to their large backlog of cases. Very large backlog...

Fare-Cop · 27 Feb 2020

Roast Veg said:
Ah I did not see this specific address, but I have had a reply suggesting that it has been forwarded on.

Good that you've had a reply, I think the normal email address for that office is [email protected]

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