XC Direct Award granted to October 2020: What improvements would you like to see?

ohgoditsjames · 24 Feb 2020

It’s unfortunate the only real possibility of capacity relief won’t come until a minimum of 2022 assuming EMT don’t experience teething issues with the new 804’s and are able to release their 222’s fully by then and that they go to XC, same with Avanti.

Even still, just an extra 4-6 HST’s would provide a huge boost but we all know that isn’t going to happen.

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74 · 24 Feb 2020

hwl said:
Monday - Thursday strongly hints at more HST usage...

Does that then mean more doubled up Voyagers on some routes?

I would think so? Presumably they'll drop the HST into a suitable Voyager diagram so there will be a spare Voyager to drop onto another diagram along with the existing diagrammed unit.

Qwerty133 · 24 Feb 2020

JN114 said:
On that basis you have alternative operators for Birmingham to Leicester.

It doesn’t excuse XC and the DfT not making improvements on the heavily overcrowded Manchester route. More kicking the can down the road on a route that hasn’t seen a service improvement in nigh-on 20 years.

Not really. There is ticket validity in the Manchester case and going via Crewe is not even close to as out of the way as you'd have to go to avoid XC between Birmingham and Leicester (the only possible routes I can think of is Birmingham-Bletchley-Bedford-Leicester or Birmingham-Stoke-Derby-Leicester).

Brissle Girl · 24 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I would think so? Presumably they'll drop the HST into a suitable Voyager diagram so there will be a spare Voyager to drop onto another diagram along with the existing diagrammed unit.

If an HST replaces a 5 car set, a 5 car set can replace a 4 car set, and the additional 4 car set can be added to another 4 car and a straight swap done with a 5 car set.

That gives 4 strengthened diagrams for each HST added to the fleet, being:-
5 car becomes 6 or 7
4 car becomes 5
5 car becomes 8 (2x4)
4 car becomes 5

So the benefit can in theory be spread around more than one would intuitively think.

Aictos · 24 Feb 2020

Qwerty133 said:
Not really. There is ticket validity in the Manchester case and going via Crewe is not even close to as out of the way as you'd have to go to avoid XC between Birmingham and Leicester (the only possible routes I can think of is Birmingham-Bletchley-Bedford-Leicester or Birmingham-Stoke-Derby-Leicester).

Or Birmingham - Nottingham - Leicester but that’s really going out of the way.

Fact remains that there is no reasonable alternative for Birmingham to Leicester and onwards unlike Manchester.

agbrs_Jack · 24 Feb 2020

Qwerty133 said:
Not really. There is ticket validity in the Manchester case and going via Crewe is not even close to as out of the way as you'd have to go to avoid XC between Birmingham and Leicester (the only possible routes I can think of is Birmingham-Bletchley-Bedford-Leicester or Birmingham-Stoke-Derby-Leicester).

Aictos said:
Or Birmingham - Nottingham - Leicester but that’s really going out of the way.

Fact remains that there is no reasonable alternative for Birmingham to Leicester and onwards unlike Manchester.

Again, not everyone is going to Manchester.
Stoke and Macclesfield passengers have 2 XC trains per hour which are both rammed
Congleton passengers have 1 train per hour that connects. Also rammed.

The local XC routes definitely need improving, but so does the Manchester route and not all destinations have alternative routes.

JN114 · 24 Feb 2020

Qwerty133 said:
Not really. There is ticket validity in the Manchester case and going via Crewe is not even close to as out of the way as you'd have to go to avoid XC between Birmingham and Leicester (the only possible routes I can think of is Birmingham-Bletchley-Bedford-Leicester or Birmingham-Stoke-Derby-Leicester).

Aictos said:
Or Birmingham - Nottingham - Leicester but that’s really going out of the way.

Fact remains that there is no reasonable alternative for Birmingham to Leicester and onwards unlike Manchester.

That’s alright then. I can see clearly now how unjustified any improvements to the XC services between Birmingham and Manchester would be now. :rolleyes:

Qwerty133 · 24 Feb 2020

Aictos said:
Or Birmingham - Nottingham - Leicester but that’s really going out of the way.

Fact remains that there is no reasonable alternative for Birmingham to Leicester and onwards unlike Manchester.

No. Birmingham-Nottingham is only possible on XC services.

Kite159 · 24 Feb 2020

agbrs_Jack said:
Again, not everyone is going to Manchester.
Stoke and Macclesfield passengers have 2 XC trains per hour which are both rammed
Congleton passengers have 1 train per hour that connects. Also rammed.

The local XC routes definitely need improving, but so does the Manchester route and not all destinations have alternative routes.

Plus the one London Northwestern service an hour to Stoke from Birmingham.

Although that only counts on the hours they can be bothered running it via Stoke rather than going direct to Crewe from Stafford as it's five minutes late.

The Ham · 24 Feb 2020

Brissle Girl said:
If an HST replaces a 5 car set, a 5 car set can replace a 4 car set, and the additional 4 car set can be added to another 4 car and a straight swap done with a 5 car set.

That gives 4 strengthened diagrams for each HST added to the fleet, being:-
5 car becomes 6 or 7
4 car becomes 5
5 car becomes 8 (2x4)
4 car becomes 5

So the benefit can in theory be spread around more than one would intuitively think.

Indeed, it's something which I've pointed out before, it would mean that with just 10 extra units you end up with the equivalent of all 7 coach Voyagers (either a 4+4 coach Voyagers or 6 coach HST) on the existing 5 coach services and half the 4 coach services running as 5 coach trains.

swt_passenger · 24 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
I would think so? Presumably they'll drop the HST into a suitable Voyager diagram so there will be a spare Voyager to drop onto another diagram along with the existing diagrammed unit.

Question still remains though, exactly why can’t they do this the day after the 5th set returns from upgrade, rather than waiting until December?

XCTurbostar · 24 Feb 2020

I would assume that this is just a lot of words for very little change.
Based on the fact that two power cars are currently at Eastleigh being refurbished for XC, I would imagine that the short term plan will involve essentially working the HSTs harder allowing a minor internal cascade. Maybe we can finally get a fixed 4 Car Voyager on a Leicester diagram. 1P04 is a good shout if your listening XC..

swt_passenger · 24 Feb 2020

XCTurbostar said:
I would assume that this is just a lot of words for very little change.
Based on the fact that two power cars are currently at Eastleigh being refurbished for XC, I would imagine that the short term plan will involve essentially working the HSTs harder allowing a minor internal cascade. Maybe we can finally get a fixed 4 Car Voyager on a Leicester diagram. 1P04 is a good shout if your listening XC..

Using Voyagers on Leicester services routinely? No chance. Extra 170 cars is the announcement, why not just believe it?

XCTurbostar · 24 Feb 2020

swt_passenger said:
Using Voyagers on Leicester services routinely? No chance. Extra 170 cars is the announcement, why not just believe it?

True, but that doesn't been they wont happen. I'll believe it when I see it.
Considering we've been waiting for harder worked HSTs for several years, the current service still frankly resembles the stock usage in 2007..

Domh245 · 24 Feb 2020

XCTurbostar said:
True, but that doesn't been they wont happen. I'll believe it when I see it.

Why would they waste a 125mph Voyager on a 100mph path to Leicester, especially considering that the 125mph services aren't exactly flush with capacity..

XCTurbostar said:
Considering we've been waiting for harder worked HSTs for several years, the current service still frankly resembles the stock usage in 2007..

Almost as if the initial franchise didn't change much (bar removing routes to concentrate stock) and then the subsequent direct awards haven't let them change anything...

Aictos · 24 Feb 2020

XCTurbostar said:
I would assume that this is just a lot of words for very little change.
Based on the fact that two power cars are currently at Eastleigh being refurbished for XC, I would imagine that the short term plan will involve essentially working the HSTs harder allowing a minor internal cascade. Maybe we can finally get a fixed 4 Car Voyager on a Leicester diagram. 1P04 is a good shout if your listening XC..

There’s more chance of a Voyager on a Cardiff to Nottingham diagram but not if it impacts badly on the XCIC routes.

LowLevel · 24 Feb 2020

agbrs_Jack said:
Again, not everyone is going to Manchester.
Stoke and Macclesfield passengers have 2 XC trains per hour which are both rammed
Congleton passengers have 1 train per hour that connects. Also rammed.

The local XC routes definitely need improving, but so does the Manchester route and not all destinations have alternative routes.

I see lots of XC Manchester trains at Stockport and I wouldn't have said they were all rammed in the slightest.

Kite159 · 24 Feb 2020

swt_passenger said:
Using Voyagers on Leicester services routinely? No chance. Extra 170 cars is the announcement, why not just believe it?

Considering a 4 car voyager probably would only give a small increase of number of standard class seats compared to a 3 coach 170 (with the downsides of longer dwell times due to the end doors)

raetiamann · 24 Feb 2020

Here's the thing with XC. Just about all their routes are for the most part of the day rammed. All have a very good case for more stock to ease the pressure, but in reality it's likely to be small improvements until the Meridians are off lease.

Regarding the 170s, where are all the units for EMR & XC coming from. ScotRail & Anglia? Are there enough to keep everybody happy? Personally I can't understand the fuss from EMR about getting old trains we had years ago.

Kite159 · 24 Feb 2020

raetiamann said:
Here's the thing with XC. Just about all their routes are for the most part of the day rammed. All have a very good case for more stock to ease the pressure, but in reality it's likely to be small improvements until the Meridians are off lease.

Regarding the 170s, where are all the units for EMR & XC coming from. ScotRail & Anglia? Are there enough to keep everybody happy? Personally I can't understand the fuss from EMR about getting old trains we had years ago.

I believe the 5x Southern 170s in Scotland sub-leased by Scotrail are coming south. The Anglia ones have gone to TfW.

EMR will be getting the 170s released from West Midlands, plus I believe maybe some of the 171s from Southern (maybe the 4 units which came from Scotland)

dk1 · 24 Feb 2020

raetiamann said:
Here's the thing with XC. Just about all their routes are for the most part of the day rammed. All have a very good case for more stock to ease the pressure, but in reality it's likely to be small improvements until the Meridians are off lease.

Regarding the 170s, where are all the units for EMR & XC coming from. ScotRail & Anglia? Are there enough to keep everybody happy? Personally I can't understand the fuss from EMR about getting old trains we had years ago.

All GAs 170s are with TfW.

agbrs_Jack · 24 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
I see lots of XC Manchester trains at Stockport and I wouldn't have said they were all rammed in the slightest.

I'm talking about Birmingham to Stoke/Macclesfield.
Try to get any peak time XC Manchester departure from Birmingham (1531 through to about 1857) if you turn up a bit late you struggle to get on at all, even if 5 coaches. (off peak isn't much better either).

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Feb 2020

A 6-month direct award with tiny improvements is all you get without a full franchise bid, for which there were no takers.
You can thank the Williams review and the howls for renationalisation for that.
Things might look better by the end of the year, if we're lucky.

Glenn1969 · 24 Feb 2020

Birmingham- Leeds- North East is also rammed most of the time I think. Longer trains and the service going 2 per hour would definitely help but I accept is not going to happen

ainsworth74 · 24 Feb 2020

LNW-GW Joint said:
A 6-month direct award with tiny improvements is all you get without a full franchise bid, for which there were no takers.

Come now, it's wasn't that bad! There was one taker, the incumbent! :lol:

Yodiethedog · 24 Feb 2020

KashmireHawker said:
That finding til October 2020, has today been confirmed by Transport Minister Chris Heaton-Harris.

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/97153/crosscountry-increased-capacity-trains/

The problem with this website is, it doesn't tell you what they are.

fgwrich · 24 Feb 2020

ainsworth74 said:
Come now, it's wasn't that bad! There was one taker, the incumbent!

I rather think OLR have got their hands full right now with LNER & Northern, and watching SWR, SouthEastern and another very closely.

It's good to see some progress happening at last though with the franchise business, and some if not minor improvements finally happening to the XC Franchise. Now, will Great Western be the next one to be extended (direct awarded) or become the OLRs next franchise?!

hwl · 24 Feb 2020

Mogz said:
It’s a bit of publicity that will change nothing on the longer journeys that are always rammed.

The news might as well be a press release telling passengers on the Scotland/North of England to South Coast/ South West services that no
changes are coming soon.

fgwrich said:
I rather think OLR have got their hands full right now with LNER & Northern, and watching SWR, SouthEastern and another very closely.

It's good to see some progress happening at last though with the franchise business, and some if not minor improvements finally happening to the XC Franchise. Now, will Great Western be the next one to be extended (direct awarded) or become the OLRs next franchise.

SE is just to provide a benchmark to make sure Govia don't rip off Dft!

nicolaboo · 24 Feb 2020

"More customers are set to benefit as the Department for Transport (DfT) and CrossCountry finalise plans to deliver thousands more seats on long distance routes each week from December 2020. Longer trains will operate on some services on Mondays to Thursdays on the routes from Scotland, the North East and Manchester to the South West and the South Coast."
Surely the bold bit does mean that the Manchester to Birmingham corridor is set for improvements. Even if it means having to wait until December.

6Gman · 24 Feb 2020

agbrs_Jack said:
I'm talking about Birmingham to Stoke/Macclesfield.
Try to get any peak time XC Manchester departure from Birmingham (1531 through to about 1857) if you turn up a bit late you struggle to get on at all, even if 5 coaches. (off peak isn't much better either).

Don't use them a lot but my experience is rammed from New Street; standing, but not what I'd call rammed from Wolves; seats from Stafford though you will need to sit next to someone and probably ask them to move a bag/coat.

XC Direct Award granted to October 2020: What improvements would you like to see?

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