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Caledonian Sleeper

Meerkat

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I disagree about the marketing - the prices have to be high and that drives the market it’s pitched at.
Would GWR have any choice other than CAF? They have a product ready to go - finding someone else to design new carriages would surely be far more expensive than trying to fix the fit out issues on the CS stock for a Mk5.1
 
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Bletchleyite

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I disagree about the marketing - the prices have to be high and that drives the market it’s pitched at.
Would GWR have any choice other than CAF? They have a product ready to go - finding someone else to design new carriages would surely be far more expensive than trying to fix the fit out issues on the CS stock for a Mk5.1

GWR potentially have more options than CS did because their operation is rather simpler, including MU-based options rather than just LHCS. However, that's way off as the Mk3s have probably got at least another 10 years in them.
 

Meerkat

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GWR potentially have more options than CS did because their operation is rather simpler, including MU-based options rather than just LHCS. However, that's way off as the Mk3s have probably got at least another 10 years in them.

You think it will be electric to Penzance within 10 years?!
 

Grumpy

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However, that's way off as the Mk3s have probably got at least another 10 years in them.
As presumably the Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s would have had. I suspect a comlete internal re-fit of the Mk3s would have been a more satisfactory and economic solution.
 

35B

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As presumably the Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s would have had. I suspect a comlete internal re-fit of the Mk3s would have been a more satisfactory and economic solution.
Debateable given the issues with getting HST Mk3s refurbished for Scotrail. High engineering costs (even without power doors), and the metalwork is still nigh on 40 years old. At some point the bullet had to be bitten to replace the Mk3s.
 

MrEd

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As presumably the Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s would have had. I suspect a comlete internal re-fit of the Mk3s would have been a more satisfactory and economic solution.

Perhaps in the short term that might have been OK, but how long could the Mk3s realistically go on for, and what do you do then once they really are finished? What will GWR do when it gets to that stage? The CS Mk3 electrics would surely have needed quite a serious overhaul to improve their reliability (as coaches with no power/no heating were a common feature with CS in the last years of the Mk3s). Another issue facing CS was the fact that (very) life-expired Mk2s were used as brake/seated coaches and lounge cars (you couldn’t replace them with Mk3s even if you wanted to, as it would make a full 16-coach rake too long for Euston’s longest platforms), and these really were absolutely gubbed (and their reliability was flagging a decade ago).

Another issue facing CS must have been PRM compliance- I’m not sure how GWR circumvent this (for now), but the Mk2s and Mk3s would have needed an enormous amount of work done to them to make them fully compliant (including at some stage the fitting of power doors, information screens, a PIS system etc), to the extent that it was perhaps deemed more economical to order new stock which could be built to comply with the regulations from day one.
 

williamn

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Was planning to take this in May/June to Aberdeen but a return in even a classic room is £415! That's just nuts!
See separate thread in fares advice...
 

Mogz

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Was planning to take this in May/June to Aberdeen but a return in even a classic room is £415! That's just nuts!
See separate thread in fares advice...

I may have said this before, but I think what’s missing from the Caledonian Sleeper offering is a couchette service.

I don’t want to travel that sort of distance trying to sleep in a seat, but I don’t need the privacy of a “room”.

I don’t mind sharing a compartment with five strangers, but would like to sleep lying flat.

It would be perfectly feasible to have six bunk compartments on this service, and I for one would use them if the price was right.

Remember £19 bargain berths (in the sleeping compartments?)

The new offering is a perfect example of “ordinary” travellers being priced out of the market.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, I certainly agree - when the pods failed to work (which would have been that intermediate class), they should have looked at the options for transverse couchettes, European style.

That or fit decent seats with a good level of recline, i.e. something more like an old-style airline business class seat than what is probably the worst 2+1 First Class seat on the railway. (As I've said before I'd rather the 2+2 seating on the Riviera as I can sort of curl up across 2 seats with the armrest up).
 

SteveM70

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Wishful thinking. CS market themselves as a hotel on wheels, it’s unthinkable that the “hotel” might be part Hilton and part hostel
 

jagardner1984

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Wishful thinking. CS market themselves as a hotel on wheels, it’s unthinkable that the “hotel” might be part Hilton and part hostel

However that is the operator’s strategy. Should, as is widely predicted; the operator hand back the keys, someone else will have a go. I’m genuinely interested as to whether the initial interest in the service (based on the marketing and the new stock) will hold with the weight of reviews etc currently against them.

I’d assume Transport Scotland, for all the political bluster about being cross with Serco, will want to keep them there regardless, as any future competition is likely to bring a lot of cost and negative publicity, particularly so soon after Abellio Scotrail’s demise.
 

FQTV

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Wishful thinking. CS market themselves as a hotel on wheels, it’s unthinkable that the “hotel” might be part Hilton and part hostel

It already is - the seats are hardly Hilton territory!

It has occurred to me on a number of occasons that Whitbread (Premier Inn) could be an ideal sub-contractor of the hotel part of the operation, given that they have operations, contracts and supply chains very close to much of the Caledonian Sleeper route and nodes.

Only Polmadie is a bit remote from the nearest Premier Inn for linen, I think. In my experience, they're also pretty good at customer service (there obviously always being exceptions), and it would be a useful contingency to have a 24/7 back up with rooms, food, drink and at least night staff within minutes of so many stations.
 

DimTim

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Premier Inns close by at Cambuslang + Glasgow East M74/73 junction also in city centre so servicing Polmadie should not be an issue!
 

paul1609

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Premier Inns laundry service is contracted out to clean laundry services also do Hyatt and an awful lot of London Hotels.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Premier Inn and a train ride" is very much where their actual realistic market is, too, and if that was how it was marketed I doubt people would care too much about stuff going wrong provided they got their money back under the "good night guarantee" (and I did claim on that once due to design issues[1] of the hotel keeping me awake). Though they'd have to drop the prices a bit.

[1] Very noisy aircon and a light shining at the window such that the room was not at all dark despite the blackout curtains.
 

sheff1

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It has occurred to me on a number of occasons that Whitbread (Premier Inn) could be an ideal sub-contractor of the hotel part of the operation

What benefits would a company with a good reputation, and an ever increasing number of (land-based) hotels, gain from becoming a sub contractor for an overnight sleeper train?
 

gingerheid

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Surely it would have to be a Travellinglodge?

Joking apart though, everything about these hotels is subcontracted, so the question doesn't really apply. If stuff is subcontracted out it may well already be to the same kind of people!
 

RLBH

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Joking apart though, everything about these hotels is subcontracted, so the question doesn't really apply,
The management ethos may be the critical thing. Look at how things can change when a new TOC takes over a franchise, despite the staff, facilities and rolling stock remaining the same.
 

al78

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Wishful thinking. CS market themselves as a hotel on wheels, it’s unthinkable that the “hotel” might be part Hilton and part hostel

What they market themselves as, and what they are in reality are two different things.
 

Bletchleyite

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What they market themselves as, and what they are in reality are two different things.

And that is 99% of the issue. They are a budget to midrange operation (the same as Nightjet and Thello, and indeed the Night Riviera) but with premium prices. And with little interest in resolving the customer service issues which would allow them to be truly premium despite the fact that this would cost relatively little.
 

FQTV

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Premier Inns laundry service is contracted out to clean laundry services also do Hyatt and an awful lot of London Hotels.

As I said in my post - [...] given that they have operations, contracts and supply chains [...]

What benefits would a company with a good reputation, and an ever increasing number of (land-based) hotels, gain from becoming a sub contractor for an overnight sleeper train?

Again, I said Whitbread. I wouldn't suggest painting the train purple; the point is that it's the back-end systems, contracts, resource and contingency that could possibly be applied to The Caledonian Sleeper and it would still be green.

Surely it would have to be a Travellinglodge?

Joking apart though, everything about these hotels is subcontracted, so the question doesn't really apply. If stuff is subcontracted out it may well already be to the same kind of people!

Again, as I said in my post - [...] given that they have operations, contracts and supply chains [...]

In the 'heyday' of sleepers, it might be worth remembering that a good part of the operation was intrinsically linked with the railway's hotels. Indeed, this continued with British Transport Hotels. Passengers generally, for example, took breakfast at the arrival station's hotel (if they wanted a proper one) - and this was at a time that sleepers were a sizeable operation. They're now not, so the intrinsic inefficiency is almost unavoidable.

If that risks destabilising the entire service, then folding the railway operations back into a train operating company to leverage their efficiency, contingency and redundancy (even a freight operating company in today's set-up), and the hotel operations into a suitable hotel operating company, again with their specialisms, efficiencies etc., might be better than the current situation.

And given that this is a Premier Inn associate brand restaurant, I don't think that there's any reason to be the least bit sniffy about whether a company like Whitbread knows how to pitch service levels appropriately:

whitbread-to-bring-premier-inn-and-bar-block-to-milburngate-1.jpg
 

sprunt

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why can one crew provide fantastic service in difficult circumstances (and they still do night in night out) and another finds the slightest excuse to do nothing at all?

That's just human nature, isn't it? In every job I've ever had I've had colleagues who couldn't do enough to help, and colleagues who acted as if doing the bare minimum was a massive imposition, and all points between.
 

jumble

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Debateable given the issues with getting HST Mk3s refurbished for Scotrail. High engineering costs (even without power doors), and the metalwork is still nigh on 40 years old. At some point the bullet had to be bitten to replace the Mk3s.

It is my view that the MK3s could undergo a re-manufacturing process like aircraft do and like LUL do with their tube trains and then they could carry on for many more years.
I suspect that tube trains have a 10 times harder life than sleepers and many have lasted 50 years in front line service
One can see an example of this in San Francisco and El Paso with their 1940s PCC Trams
We travelled on one that had just come back from a refurb and it looked like it had just come from the factory
 

35B

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It is my view that the MK3s could undergo a re-manufacturing process like aircraft do and like LUL do with their tube trains and then they could carry on for many more years.
I suspect that tube trains have a 10 times harder life than sleepers and many have lasted 50 years in front line service
One can see an example of this in San Francisco and El Paso with their 1940s PCC Trams
We travelled on one that had just come back from a refurb and it looked like it had just come from the factory
I can't comment on the trams, but aircraft are subject to stringent fatigue life provisions, while I suggest you look at the performance of the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines given the age of their fleets before assuming such rebuilds can do the structural work required. Hearing the amount of work that's gone into making the 150s fit for service (yes, oxymoron noted!), I am less sanguine than you about the viability of such re-engineering.
 

Sleeperwaking

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It is my view that the MK3s could undergo a re-manufacturing process like aircraft do and like LUL do with their tube trains and then they could carry on for many more years.
I suspect that tube trains have a 10 times harder life than sleepers and many have lasted 50 years in front line service
One can see an example of this in San Francisco and El Paso with their 1940s PCC Trams
We travelled on one that had just come back from a refurb and it looked like it had just come from the factory
Tube trains don't generally have to run around in Scottish weather conditions, which can be a main contributory factor towards turning structural metallic elements into something resembling Swiss cheese. See also water leaks from toilets / catering facilities, neither of which are prevalent on tube trains (I have seen photos of the depot floor taken from inside a non-sleeper Mk3 catering vehicle, through a giant gaping rust hole in the floor). I'm sure the Mk3s could undergo a re-manufacturing process, including all the required accessibility upgrades (reckon those would have a bit of an impact on berth spacing). I am also sure that it would be cheaper and faster to buy a new fleet of trains.
 

bastien

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Tube trains don't generally have to run around in Scottish weather conditions, which can be a main contributory factor towards turning structural metallic elements into something resembling Swiss cheese. See also water leaks from toilets / catering facilities, neither of which are prevalent on tube trains (I have seen photos of the depot floor taken from inside a non-sleeper Mk3 catering vehicle, through a giant gaping rust hole in the floor). I'm sure the Mk3s could undergo a re-manufacturing process, including all the required accessibility upgrades (reckon those would have a bit of an impact on berth spacing). I am also sure that it would be cheaper and faster to buy a new fleet of trains.
How about building a new coach on top of the Mark 3 bogies? There must be a hell of a lot of good examples going spare right now.
 

nlogax

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How about building a new coach on top of the Mark 3 bogies? There must be a hell of a lot of good examples going spare right now.

Or swap out whatever tin-foil chicanery currently graces the lower portions of the Mk5s with those lovely spare BT10s?

(of course I'm kidding - can hardly imagine such a thing is remotely practical or would fix the bigger ride problem)
 

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