Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

LeylandLen · 24 Feb 2020

js1000 said:
I've complained about the lack of bins or visibility of to Northern shortly after they were introduced. The bin was a major flaw (alongside lack of overhead grab rails) as they'll just get trashed within a few years.

There is one small bin located near each door although very well hidden behind seating and dividing panel. It's not as easy as putting more bins in as similar areas appear to occupued by heating gubbins and fire extinguisher holders.

The easiest solution would be to employ some staff to gove units a quick clean (i.e. bin bags) at major stations (Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime Street & Leeds) between services. Northern under Abellio used to have them but Arriva got rid of them shortly after taking over the franchise in 2016.

My gripe about this not only applies to Northern , other TOCs and Network rail. They all are keen to sell us fast food, snacks coffee and a myriad of so called goodies, but do not give us anywhere to dispose of wrappers, plastic cups cans and bottles.

RailUK Forums

61653 HTAFC · 24 Feb 2020

Class455 said:
Are there any plans to use these units on services out of Huddersfield?

Other than training runs, no. It's theoretically possible that the odd one might run late evening services on the Bradfords, if any are going to be booked to overnight in the sidings. Unlikely though.

Neptune · 27 Feb 2020

Speaking with individuals from OLR who did a tour of traincrew depots over the last fortnight they expressed amazement at 2 car units being ordered and are apparently looking into them being extended to 3 cars.

Hopefully this wasn’t an appeasement tactic and they will actually follow this through.

AMD · 27 Feb 2020

Neptune said:
Speaking with individuals from OLR who did a tour of traincrew depots over the last fortnight they expressed amazement at 2 car units being ordered and are apparently looking into them being extended to 3 cars.

This is something Arriva started looking into as far back as late summer last year - that info came from the mouth of David Brown himself in a meeting I was in.

Killingworth · 27 Feb 2020

AMD said:
This is something Arriva started looking into as far back as late summer last year - that info came from the mouth of David Brown himself in a meeting I was in.

Hopefully someone has already checked the likely cost of adding third carriages and the timescales to do the work. Freed of the financial shackles of Arrivas franchise such an order would be a small indication of positive action by the OLR.

Even if ordered now it's likely to be 2-3 years before any relief is felt. Question then is how many would/will be extended?

Bantamzen · 27 Feb 2020

Killingworth said:
Hopefully someone has already checked the likely cost of adding third carriages and the timescales to do the work. Freed of the financial shackles of Arrivas franchise such an order would be a small indication of positive action by the OLR.

Even if ordered now it's likely to be 2-3 years before any relief is felt. Question then is how many would/will be extended?

To be fair many of those shackles were imposed on by the terms of the franchise, so if the OLR do eventually order more carriages those terms will have to be eased.

OrangeJuice · 27 Feb 2020

But there's still the DfT/Treasury approval required for extra carriages, whoever name is on the franchise or on the side of the train. And there's no guarantee that will come for Northern anytime soon

Goldie · 27 Feb 2020

Neptune said:
Speaking with individuals from OLR who did a tour of traincrew depots over the last fortnight they expressed amazement at 2 car units being ordered and are apparently looking into them being extended to 3 cars.

Hopefully this wasn’t an appeasement tactic and they will actually follow this through.

I really hope that happens. 2 car 195s would have made sense if we could have trusted the operator to use them as the building blocks for making up trains long enough for the number of passengers. But the Northern franchise area has been suffering from not enough train for the passengers for thirty years or more.

Roast Veg · 27 Feb 2020

Are there any platforms (thinking bay platforms in particular) that could not accommodate a 3 car 195?

abgrey · 27 Feb 2020

Roast Veg said:
Are there any platforms (thinking bay platforms in particular) that could not accommodate a 3 car 195?

Not really an actual platform length problem but whenever a 3-car is used on the Lincoln-Leeds line, there’s too many trains at Sheffield to fit the train so everyone is directed to move to the front carriage to leave.

PomWombat · 27 Feb 2020

It has always struck me that there are 3 conflicting points about the length of a train (as opposed to the length of one unit in the train):

The train must be long enough to carry the number of passengers wanting to use it
The train must be short enough to fit in all the platforms on the journey
The DfT, with some input from the TOC, must allow enough units to be leased to allow operation at these levels, including growth over time.

In Northern's case, fitting trains into platforms is key ... and requires flexibility. If they had bought 4 carriage units, then the only possible trains are 4, 8 or 12 carriages - and it can take years to lengthen platforms to accommodate a single step increase. With a mix of 2 and 3 car units, they get the best flexibility ... as you can make a train with any number of carriages from 2 upwards. Growth can come 1 carriage at a time.

Of course, this can only work if you leased enough carriages & units to actually run in multi in this way, or DfT allowed it. Also that there is enough headroom for growth, and for servicing such that short forms don't happen.

Northern don't have that luxury right now. Winding down pacers, without a full complement of new trains, and with refurbishment still in full swing is always going to cause pain on allocations.

So I'm wary of converting every 2 car 195 into a 3 car. It loses flexibility in constructing multi-unit trains ... which you could only regain by gradually adding carriages to 3's to make 4s, and so on. 2's and 3's make for better building blocks in a non-homogeneous railway ... and is the whole point of MUs.

It all falls down when the bean counters prevent a TOC from responding to growing requirements.

Llama · 27 Feb 2020

Another consideration is space for stabling said units. I suspect that had a significant bearing on the number of two-car units ordered.

Neptune · 27 Feb 2020

That’s all well and good however when a train is booked for 2x2 car units because of loadings we often see it shortformed leading to the inevitable.

If all trains on said route are formed of 3 or even 4 car units then shortforms cannot happen.

Also the temptation to replace 2 car units with 2 car units causes major problems. Look at the Leeds - Nottingham/Lincoln services. A 2 car 195 has a higher theoretical capacity than a 2 car 158. However this means more standees than previously as a 195 has far less seats than what it replaced. Is this better for the customer?

I’ll give a for instance:-
The 1717 Nottingham - Leeds service has always been busy until Chesterfield and even Sheffield. With a 2 car 158 there were maybe 10-20 standees and always seats for all after Alfreton and sometimes the stop before at Langley Mill.

The day the 2 car 195 took over this service led to 50+ standees and seats for all only after Chesterfield.

Last week a 3 car 195 turned up and guess what. Seats for all out of Nottingham and it was still busy with only a few seats available.

If 3 cars can be justified all day on the Calder Valley then they can be justified on this route too. They are busy trains all day and at peak times a 3 car prevents the sometimes crush loadings that a totally insufficient 2 car provides.

Maybe in time the current 3 car units could be extended to 4 cars. We always hear how new trains bring more punters. It certainly worked when the 333’s were extended from 3 to 4 cars early in their career.

SteveM70 · 27 Feb 2020

If the plan had always been for them to frequently run in multiple, then why were they specified without end corridor connections?

notlob.divad · 27 Feb 2020

Personally I think, if they are going to increase the number of carriages, they would be far better ordering 8 new complete 3 car units, (24 carriages) rather than 25 new centre cars in order to make all 2 car units 3 car. There are plenty of small branch lines where a 2 car unit will be absolutely fine for the foreseeable future. Combining that with the flexibility to run 4 or 5 carriages where that matches the service requirements, is surely a huge benefit.

Roast Veg · 27 Feb 2020

notlob.divad said:
Personally I think, if they are going to increase the number of carriages, they would be far better ordering 8 new complete 3 car units, (24 carriages) rather than 25 new centre cars in order to make all 2 car units 3 car. There are plenty of small branch lines where a 2 car unit will be absolutely fine for the foreseeable future. Combining that with the flexibility to run 4 or 5 carriages where that matches the service requirements, is surely a huge benefit.

But as has been suggested, northern don't have the staff or depot space to bring them in. Training on existing units is slow enough, thanks to understaffing.

Bovverboy · 27 Feb 2020

notlob.divad said:
Personally I think, if they are going to increase the number of carriages, they would be far better ordering 8 new complete 3 car units, (24 carriages) rather than 25 new centre cars in order to make all 2 car units 3 car. There are plenty of small branch lines where a 2 car unit will be absolutely fine for the foreseeable future. Combining that with the flexibility to run 4 or 5 carriages where that matches the service requirements, is surely a huge benefit.

Roast Veg said:
But as has been suggested, northern don't have the staff or depot space to bring them in. Training on existing units is slow enough, thanks to understaffing.

Why would an extra 24 carriages (8 x 3-car) take up more space than an 25 (extra centre cars)? In any case, there's plenty of stabling space available, there's plenty yet at Springs Branch, for instance.
And why would an extra 24/25 carriages (of a type already in service) involve additional training?

Llama · 27 Feb 2020

I think the suggestion of using displaced two-car units on branch lines they wouldn't otherwise see could potentially lead to more traincrew training requirements if those traincrew working those lines would not otherwise have been trained on the 195s.

Bletchleyite · 27 Feb 2020

notlob.divad said:
Personally I think, if they are going to increase the number of carriages, they would be far better ordering 8 new complete 3 car units, (24 carriages) rather than 25 new centre cars in order to make all 2 car units 3 car. There are plenty of small branch lines where a 2 car unit will be absolutely fine for the foreseeable future. Combining that with the flexibility to run 4 or 5 carriages where that matches the service requirements, is surely a huge benefit.

I think that was the long-term game with 2-car sets (which might have made sense if they'd specced gangways), but they don't presently run on any "small branch lines", they are used on Northern's premier services where a 2-car set is barely ever enough.

PomWombat · 28 Feb 2020

Neptune said:
That’s all well and good however when a train is booked for 2x2 car units because of loadings we often see it shortformed leading to the inevitable.

If all trains on said route are formed of 3 or even 4 car units then shortforms cannot happen.

That's the best argument in favour of longer units - that shortforms cannot happen.

I've experienced that myself over the last (near) 2 years, as 170s have taken over from 14X+150 combinations. The 170s have made the journey times much more reliable.

Adam0984 · 28 Feb 2020

It's a tough one especially around Leeds and Sheffield. With the Notts/Lincoln if they became 3 cars then that would mean that it couldn't share a platform at Leeds with the Knottingley/Sheffield, at Sheffield the Lincoln couldn't share one of the bays with other services, at Notts they couldn't then share platform 4 with the Matlock (although I have noticed that the Matlock seems to have been replatformed recently)
Stabling at Sheffield is pretty much at capacity and at Leeds is nearing capacity at the depots and most of the bays are occupied during the night in the station.

woodhouse122 · 28 Feb 2020

Adam0984 said:
It's a tough one especially around Leeds and Sheffield. With the Notts/Lincoln if they became 3 cars then that would mean that it couldn't share a platform at Leeds with the Knottingley/Sheffield, at Sheffield the Lincoln couldn't share one of the bays with other services.

Most of the Lincoln services go off platform 5 at sheffield and the Platform 3 and 4 bay platforms can easily handle 5 carriages so there wont be much of a problem at sheffield

Adam0984 · 28 Feb 2020

woodhouse122 said:
Most of the Lincoln services go off platform 5 at sheffield and the Platform 3 and 4 bay platforms can easily handle 5 carriages so there wont be much of a problem at sheffield

The Lincoln to Leeds shares platform 3 with the xx:05 Adwick so something would need replatforming

geoffk · 28 Feb 2020

Short platforms and lack of sidings will become an increasing problem. Maybe there's not much future for Sheffield platform 2C or Huddersfield 5.

Adam0984 · 28 Feb 2020

Huddersfield is planned to have a major overhaul with new platforms on the sidings and the track layout and presumably sorting the bays out

a_c_skinner · 28 Feb 2020

Llama said:
Another consideration is space for stabling said units. I suspect that had a significant bearing on the number of two-car units ordered.

Tail. Dog. Wag.

superkev · 28 Feb 2020

Adam0984 said:
Huddersfield is planned to have a major overhaul with new platforms on the sidings and the track layout and presumably sorting the bays out

I think the proposed sidings platform is only temporary to allow other platform works are done.
K

Killingworth · 28 Feb 2020

geoffk said:
Short platforms and lack of sidings will become an increasing problem. Maybe there's not much future for Sheffield platform 2C or Huddersfield 5.

2c has just had track renewed and certainly won't take 3 cars of anything, and apparently might struggle with a 2 car 195..

hwl · 28 Feb 2020

Llama said:
Another consideration is space for stabling said units. I suspect that had a significant bearing on the number of two-car units ordered.

And not just an issue at Northern either.

superkev · 29 Feb 2020

Sowerby bridge today. Old and new.
K

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