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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

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AM9

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Mikey C said:
As the 319/769s still rely on opening the window to get ventilation, I can't imagine they will be that quiet inside...
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Llama said:
The quietest vehicle will be the ATS, with the only noise on that car itself being the MA set spinning and the main compressor running periodically. The PMS car on 319s is probably noisier than the general ambience on 15x units, especially at speed.
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From a passenger point of view, the noise of the 319s vs 150s is subjective, the PMS (which is essentially unchanged on a 769 conversion) the predominant noise is from the transformer on starting, but that is then replaced by the DC motor/pinion whine. No worse than any other MKIII EMU and highly dependent on load. Once the cruising speed is reached, it fades away to little more than general rail noises. The power electronics on the trailer car, (also unchanged in the conversion) only makes it's presence known on initial pulling away and can't really be heard once outside station environs. The diesel/generator sets in the driving cars obviously do make DMU-type noises, but the engines are new and probably much quieter than the Cummins in the 150s, maybe sounding more like a Man 170/172 engine, plus the reduced time that they will be spinning at maximum revolutions.
Obviously we will have to wait until they are in service to do the acid test.
 
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Llama

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AM9 said:
. Once the cruising speed is reached
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You have a lot of faith in 319s. On most routes they're used on in the NW, you end up taking full traction power shortly after starting away, never reaching permissible speed, until shutting off power for whatever restrictive aspect/station/PSR you are approaching.
Even on the longer faster stretches such as across the Chat Moss, Cheshire plains or WCML between Preston and Wigan you're still taking full traction power most of the time trying to will a bit more speed out of them.

Most of the time you're either taking full traction power or braking.
 
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AM9

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hwl said:
MTU not MAN in 170/172
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Oops, yes thanks for correcting me.
Bottom line is however, a (say) 5-10 year old design will be a far more friendly engine to passengers than a 40 year old one, and that would be true if both were in a new condition. Many of the Sprinter installations are noisy, leaky, and of course prone to failure.
 
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hwl

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AM9 said:
Oops, yes thanks for correcting me.
Bottom line is however, a (say) 5-10 year old design will be a far more friendly engine to passengers than a 40 year old one, and that would be true if both were in a new condition. Many of the Sprinter installations are noisy, leaky, and of course prone to failure.
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The Cummins engine design dates from 1968, the MTU one from 1967. One was fairly unsuccessful overall, the other is still being updated and made, having sold well over a million engines* (mostly with Merc and Detriot Diesel badges)

*some versions alone have sold 0.5M+ engines
 
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samuelmorris

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hwl said:
The Cummins engine design dates from 1968, the MTU one from 1967. One was fairly unsuccessful overall, the other is still being updated and made, having sold well over a million engines* (mostly with Merc and Detriot Diesel badges)

*some versions alone have sold 0.5M+ engines
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Unsuccessful? Isn't the NTA855 a derivation of the unit used in most american trucks not so long ago? Peterbilts and the like.
 
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hwl

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samuelmorris said:
Unsuccessful? Isn't the NTA855 a derivation of the unit used in most american trucks not so long ago? Peterbilts and the like.
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The US truck builders used to have several engine options to buy in.
The first version proved very temperamental in truck use so wasn't that popular, the second version was more popular but again plenty of new unreliability issues and not as good as competitors but cheaper to purchase, ditto V3 for which they also got mega-fined in the late 1990s in defeat devices vs emission testing round 1. Design retired from road use in 2001/2. They lost market share during the entire time they made that engine. They also have smaller and larger engines from different families that were going to the same manufacturers at the same time.
 
anthony263

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Finally nice to see one out on mainline in daylight be interesting to see what staff and passengers think of them.v
 
D365

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anthony263 said:
Finally nice to see one out on mainline in daylight be interesting to see what staff and passengers think of them.v
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Surely the passenger experience won't be much different compared to a regular 319.
 
anthony263

anthony263

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Looks like tfw are trialing one of their 769s on the Rhymney line tommorow timings recently posted on Facebook
There are 4 in total:
3Z69 1029 off Canton
3Z70 1158 off Rhymney
3Z71 1336 off Canton
3Z72 1458 off Rhymney
 
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AndrewE

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D365 said:
Surely the passenger experience won't be much different compared to a regular 319.
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That depends what it is like when you are sitting on top of one of the engines, and how noisy they are when they are "idling."
 
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a_c_skinner

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Sitting over one will be a deal better than standing on any of the other rolling stock Northern has. We keep forgetting that the big comfort issue on Northern is loadings.
 
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Grannyjoans

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You have a lot of faith in 319s. On most routes they're used on in the NW, you end up taking full traction power shortly after starting away, never reaching permissible speed, until shutting off power for whatever restrictive aspect/station/PSR you are approaching.
Even on the longer faster stretches such as across the Chat Moss, Cheshire plains or WCML between Preston and Wigan you're still taking full traction power most of the time trying to will a bit more speed out of them.

Most of the time you're either taking full traction power or braking.
Click to expand...

Yep they're pretty much pants to drive on stopping work. 331's are so much better.
 
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Grannyjoans

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How noisy are the 769's on diesel traction?

I think one of the 319's major benefits over the 150 interior wise is just less noise.
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The worst noise by far will always be the APIS on the 319/769.
 
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AM9

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Grannyjoans said:
Yep they're pretty much pants to drive on stopping work. 331's are so much better.
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Nobody is disputing that a nearly new train with (probably around 50%) higher power to weight ratio spread over more axles is easier to drive than 30-year old DC motored MKIII stock, so in a thread about 769s, largely irrelevant.
 
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Grannyjoans

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AM9 said:
Nobody is disputing that a nearly new train with (probably around 50%) higher power to weight ratio spread over more axles is easier to drive than 30-year old DC motored MKIII stock, so in a thread about 769s, largely irrelevant.
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The 3 car 331's probably have over 300% higher horsepower to weight ratio than the 319.
3,600hp @ rail on a 3-car 331 vs 1,350hp @ rail on a heavier 4-car 319.
In terms of skill level the 319's are not any harder to drive than 331's. They are just much more tedious on stoppers due to the slow acceleration, and the cab is nowhere near as comfortable.
Another negative is that the APIS is *much* more audible from the driving cab of a 319 than it is from the 331.
 
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Greybeard33 said:
When a 769 fails on a non-electrified line, can it be rescued by a 15x? Or is another 769 needed?
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Im pretty sure it’s still tightlock couplers on the 769s, so no a 15x won’t be able to rescue it - it’ll have to be another 769 or rescue loco + adaptor.
 
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