Chiltern Railways: Misleading A Wheelchair User Over Access to a Train

MagisterLudi · 21 Feb 2020

Already received a lot of coverage online:

A Chiltern Railways employee advising a wheelchair user that they cannot board a train because "the train manager will not allow it", along with a number of other reasons. You have to wonder how many other people face the same challenges daily on the railways.

I think the linked video from Twitter sums up why equality and accessibility training should be paramount:

https://twitter.com/KatiePennick/status/1230567309338710016

After being interviewed about inaccessible transport, I tried to get a train home and this is what I encounter: @chilternrailway tried to refuse me access, told me they couldn’t allow me on the train due to health and safety, that there was no ramp, no space. This was all false.

It took me arguing with 3 different people over a 20 minute period to be allowed onto the train. They were dismissive, rude, utterly devoid of compassion and treated me with contempt (and lied to my face).

This is what disabled people have to deal with, every single day. Fighting - and I mean fighting - just to get anywhere. I am exhausted. And quite frankly I’m sick of saying the same thing over and over.

We need @LevelBoarding to be made a priority - now. No excuses. No delays. Accessible transport is a basic human right and is fundamental to an equitable society. This is not up for debate. #C4LB

Feel free to move if it's in the wrong forum.

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hexagon789 · 21 Feb 2020

MagisterLudi said:
Already received a lot of coverage online:

A Chiltern Railways employee advising a wheelchair user that they cannot board a train because "the train manager will not allow it", along with a number of other reasons. You have to wonder how many other people face the same challenges daily on the railways.

I think the linked video from Twitter sums up why equality and accessibility training should be paramount:

https://twitter.com/KatiePennick/status/1230567309338710016

Feel free to move if it's in the wrong forum.

Can't Train Managers refuse to allow anyone to board a train? I'm not saying they were necessarily right to, but their may have been a reason?

There's no an awful lot of detail in that post and what there is is understandably one-sided, we don't have the full picture as such

MagisterLudi · 21 Feb 2020

Someone with more knowledge of this than I have or who may have been there at the time will be able to inform but it appears to be the 17:21 London Marylebone to Bicester North. On the Chiltern Railway downloadable timetable it is at the bottom of the page (63) that this is one of several trains which are unable to accommodate wheelchair users due to the width of the doors and the gangways. However, despite the employee's insistence they seem to be able to accommodate them after all.

Bletchleyite · 21 Feb 2020

Presumably there is a short term derogation for this (the slamdoor set)?

I agree with her on level boarding though. 80x were a huge missed opportunity.

CyrusWuff · 21 Feb 2020

Looking on the DfT website, there's a general derogation in place for all of the Mk3s - issued in May 2018 - due to issues with the contrast of the vestibule flooring, wheelchair ramp angle and height of the handholds on the seat backs.

I believe the additional problem with the slam door rake is that it doesn't have a Business Zone vehicle, nor have the other vehicles been refurbished, thus it only has the original (non-PRM TSI compliant) "small" wheelchair space and no accessible toilet.

Looking at the Twitter feed of the user in question, she seems to have remarkably bad luck when it comes to travelling with Chiltern.

Alternative services to her destination would be at 1647 (which she must have just missed) and 1746, the latter arriving 13 minutes after the 1721 as it makes fewer stops.

Brissle Girl · 22 Feb 2020

CyrusWuff said:
Looking at the Twitter feed of the user in question, she seems to have remarkably bad luck when it comes to travelling with Chiltern.

Bearing in mind she is a campaigner on these issues, and had appeared on the Jeremy Vine Show earlier in the day, it would not surprise me if she had specifically targeted this train, being well aware of Chiltern's stance as given in the timetable leaflet.

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2020

Brissle Girl said:
Bearing in mind she is a campaigner on these issues, and had appeared on the Jeremy Vine Show earlier in the day, it would not surprise me if she had specifically targeted this train, being well aware of Chiltern's stance as given in the timetable leaflet.

To be fair, while Chiltern do have a derogation to operate this train, as it has a wheelchair space I don't entirely understand this blanket policy which appears to be to make their life easier, which is not how the law sees things. Should it not be "Some wheelchairs may not be able to be accommodated on this train temporarily, and there is no wheelchair accessible toilet facility; if yours is larger than aa x bb centimetres or you may require use of the toilet please use another service"?

It seems very similar to the reason why TPE ended up not operating Mk3s at all and I'm not clear why Chiltern should get away with turning away wheelchairs that do fit in the non-compliant space.

Will she be pursuing them in Court to get a decision on whether this constitutes reasonable adjustment or not? I don't think it does, and would love to see them pulled up on it. I don't even use a wheelchair, I'm fully able bodied, but I get fed up of seeing the railway fail on this time after time, and they really need a repeated very hard whack until it's got right.

CyrusWuff · 22 Feb 2020

Seems the 1721 was formed of a pair of two car 165s rather than the slam door set yesterday. Bet that was cosy!

LowLevel · 23 Feb 2020

Interestingly EMR HSTs have restrictions on carrying wheelchair users to unmanned stations as there aren't and never have been any onboard ramps. This is one of the issues being resolved with the introduction of the ex LNER sets.

More generally for Mk3 coaches the width of the doorway can cause a problem - I used to do passenger assistance on them and had numerous regulars who were unable to get their chairs through the doors.

This nearly became a nasty incident once as I had a passenger who I was almost certain was using a chair too big to fit but insisted on trying. I instructed them not to use the handles on the chair wheels and keep their hands clear and instinctively presumably they tried to propel themselves when I was pushing them up the ramp so I had to stop the movement.

When I tried again said handles became wedged solid against the train and I would have hated to see what would have happened had their hands been there. They had to wait for the next train.

Most chairs *will* actually fit but there was a sizeable minority that would not.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2020

Brissle Girl said:
Bearing in mind she is a campaigner on these issues, and had appeared on the Jeremy Vine Show earlier in the day, it would not surprise me if she had specifically targeted this train, being well aware of Chiltern's stance as given in the timetable leaflet.

There can be little doubt the 1721 was specifically aimed for, yes.

Do we know where she was going to, and if she got on it in the end?

Mojo · 23 Feb 2020

What exactly is the issue with these sets and wheelchairs that Tocs seem to wish to ban wheelchair users? I seem to remember a similar issue when Transpennine wished to ban wheelchairs from their interim sets pending the arrival of their new rolling stock.

My first job on the railway was station staff at a major interchange station for an Inter-City Toc. Part of this role included assisting customers with disabilities and I regularly assisted wheelchair using customers on to Mk3 hauled coaching stock and HST carriages (which are fundamentally the same as the former) using the standard yellow wheelchair ramps that we used for all stock that were not Desiros, Voyagers or Pendolinos. If the platform was particularly narrow at the point where the wheelchair user was required to board we would use the ramp from the cabinet on board the train.

As a customer I have had in the past no problems on LNER (and predecessor Tocs) with family members who are wheelchair users boarding HSTs on the East Coast Main Line either.

CyrusWuff · 23 Feb 2020

yorkie said:
There can be little doubt the 1721 was specifically aimed for, yes.

Do we know where she was going to, and if she got on it in the end?

Judging by her Twitter feed, she was headed for Haddenham & Thame Parkway and eventually boarded the 1721 after the Guard deployed the on-board ramp.

Mojo said:
What exactly is the issue with these sets and wheelchairs that Tocs seem to wish to ban wheelchair users?

The issue in this case is that the vehicle in question is an unrefurbished Mk3, thus only has a 670mm wide wheelchair space and no Call for Aid if memory serves. There's also no universally accessible toilet reachable from said wheelchair space.

Mojo · 23 Feb 2020

CyrusWuff said:
The issue in this case is that the vehicle in question is an unrefurbished Mk3, thus only has a 670mm wide wheelchair space and no Call for Aid if memory serves. There's also no universally accessible toilet reachable from said wheelchair space.

It seems that the customer’s wheelchair did in fact fit in in the designated space, so why does the company seem to ban such people from their trains where it seems that the majority of electric wheelchairs will fit?

philthetube · 24 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I agree with her on level boarding though. 80x were a huge missed opportunity.

Level boarding is dangerous as long as you have curved platforms, the numbers of passengers falling onto the track at baker st. has gone through the roof since the S stock was introduced, this appears to be because people do not watch where they are putting their feet when there is no step.

Re build the stations with straight platforms then you can look at the trains.

Mojo · 24 Feb 2020

philthetube said:
Level boarding is dangerous as long as you have curved platforms, the numbers of passengers falling onto the track at baker st. has gone through the roof since the S stock was introduced, this appears to be because people do not watch where they are putting their feet when there is no step.

Re build the stations with straight platforms then you can look at the trains.

Level boarding does not have to mean trains that have lower floors (meaning a wider horizontal gap) such as the S Stock. Look at some of the new trains on Greater Anglia with retractable steps. In many cases wheelchair using customers can use these trains without any input of staff, which is where almost all issues arise.

philthetube · 24 Feb 2020

Mojo said:
Level boarding does not have to mean trains that have lower floors (meaning a wider horizontal gap) such as the S Stock. Look at some of the new trains on Greater Anglia with retractable steps. In many cases wheelchair using customers can use these trains without any input of staff, which is where almost all issues arise.

I will have to have a look when I am in the area, If the issue of a gap on curved platforms is solved then it is practical, however you state that wheelchair users can board at many stations which suggests that this is not the case, am happy to be proved wrong.

Bletchleyite · 24 Feb 2020

philthetube said:
I will have to have a look when I am in the area, If the issue of a gap on curved platforms is solved then it is practical, however you state that wheelchair users can board at many stations which suggests that this is not the case, am happy to be proved wrong.

It does solve the issue of curved platforms (to the extent that they are curved on mainline stations - Clapham Junction P17 may be difficult, though) by way of a moving step which fills any gap.

100andthirty · 24 Feb 2020

Mojo said:
Level boarding does not have to mean trains that have lower floors (meaning a wider horizontal gap) such as the S Stock. Look at some of the new trains on Greater Anglia with retractable steps. In many cases wheelchair using customers can use these trains without any input of staff, which is where almost all issues arise.

Actually level boarding does mean trains have to have lower floors, and the new Greater Anglia trains do indeed have lower floors. The challenge is to deal with the large number of platforms that don't conform to the standard height and offset.

Mojo · 24 Feb 2020

100andthirty said:
Actually level boarding does mean trains have to have lower floors, and the new Greater Anglia trains do indeed have lower floors. The challenge is to deal with the large number of platforms that don't conform to the standard height and offset.

Yes but that isn't relevant in the context of the post I was replying to a lower floor also creating a larger (and potentially more dangerous) gap as is the case on the London Underground S Stock trains, as proven by some of the new trains introduced by Greater Anglia which are fitted with a retractible component which minimises the risk.

jumble · 25 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
To be fair, while Chiltern do have a derogation to operate this train, as it has a wheelchair space I don't entirely understand this blanket policy which appears to be to make their life easier, which is not how the law sees things. Should it not be "Some wheelchairs may not be able to be accommodated on this train temporarily, and there is no wheelchair accessible toilet facility; if yours is larger than aa x bb centimetres or you may require use of the toilet please use another service"?

It seems very similar to the reason why TPE ended up not operating Mk3s at all and I'm not clear why Chiltern should get away with turning away wheelchairs that do fit in the non-compliant space.

Will she be pursuing them in Court to get a decision on whether this constitutes reasonable adjustment or not? I don't think it does, and would love to see them pulled up on it. I don't even use a wheelchair, I'm fully able bodied, but I get fed up of seeing the railway fail on this time after time, and they really need a repeated very hard whack until it's got right.

I feel very sorry for the wheelchair user but I also feel for the staff on the ground who are put into an impossible situation
If they let the user on that train presumably they risk disciplinary action and their jobs for disobeying instructions from management or worse if the user then hurts them-self as a result of the train not being suitable.
If they refuse then they get serious grief from the disabled users and have their identity posted on social media
Like you say court action is needed

Mojo · 25 Feb 2020

jumble said:
If they let the user on that train presumably they risk disciplinary action and their jobs for disobeying instructions from management or worse if the user then hurts them-self as a result of the train not being suitable.

The train quite clearly is suitable however as proven by the fact that the lady in question was eventually boarded and it has a wheelchair space on board. These spaces, whilst not compliant with modern standards, have been used for decades with no manner of fuss.

Starmill · 25 Feb 2020

Train companies have an appalling record in this area. I am beginning to wonder if they just view compliance with the law as simply too inconvenient?

Starmill · 25 Feb 2020

Mojo said:
I seem to remember a similar issue when Transpennine wished to ban wheelchairs from their interim sets pending the arrival of their new rolling stock.

They decided not only to prohibit wheelchair users from some services which they had previously been both permitted and perfectly able to use, but also to refuse to provide alternative transport, and to ask the customers to wait for an hour. The decision was, of course, reversed before the policy came into effect. There is little doubt that it would have been unlawful if it had done. It is hard to imagine how they could have got that one any more wrong.

sheff1 · 25 Feb 2020

Starmill said:
Train companies have an appalling record in this area. I am beginning to wonder if they just view compliance with the law is simply as too inconvenient?

Well they certainly seem to think compling with ticketing and consumer law is something they do not need to do, so why not take the same attitude in this area as well.

Mojo · 26 Feb 2020

Starmill said:
Train companies have an appalling record in this area. I am beginning to wonder if they just view compliance with the law as simply too inconvenient?

I have no idea, I would have thought that in cases such as this where it is technically possible and deliverable at zero additional cost it would just be easier to let it happen rather than avoid disputes. I would also have to question the moral fibres of the staff involved who are making these decisions and acting in the ways that they do toward customers in wheelchairs.

As someone who occasionally assists a wheelchair user on public transport the way I have been treated by railway staff, including my own colleagues when I am off duty, is disgusting; from watching the wheelchair user be picked up from their wheelchair and then promptly dropped from standing onto the platform when the staff member forgot their T Key to unlock the ramp, to being chased down the road from the station when I walked away after having been told that I was wrong in requesting assistance at a certain station, to having snide and untrue comments made about us in reports, and having to listen to staff repeatedly complain that they have a bad back when asked to deploy the manual boarding ramp.

Chiltern Railways: Misleading A Wheelchair User Over Access to a Train

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