Dangerous Driving?

bramling · 23 Feb 2020

williamn said:
I still wonder what would happen if a child, animal or object was on the tracks - you wouldn't have time to react and even at that speed could still do significant damage. Sorry to be a H+S bore...

At the end of the day trains aren't driven on sight, this is why signalling is provided.

As far as the original question goes, the answer is it depends on whether that procedure is allowed by the railway's rule book. Doing token changes on the move is no longer allowed on the mainline (although that's not to say it doesn't occasionally happen - I was surprised to see it happen somewhere recently at a location I'm not going to write). However doing token changes on the move it part of the heritage railway experience, so personally I don't have a problem with it.

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theironroad · 23 Feb 2020

bassmike said:
_____s_ What a performance just to couple two units!!

Makes auto dellner couplers look nice but I bet a experienced shunter could do those pipes etc in less than a couple of minutes.

I loved the way the narrator says that the DMU s are very quiet and how the warning horn should be used . Relative to steam they probably were, onder what he'd have to say about EMUs as these days DMUs seem positively loud and nosiy and smelly....

Alan Warren · 23 Feb 2020

big all said:
holdover button at 15 mins on this video

sorry cant embed it ??

Interestingly a lot of that video was filmed at County School on the Mid Norfolk Railway. So who knows, one day they may be going through that procedure all over again!

big all · 23 Feb 2020

bramling said:
At the end of the day trains aren't driven on sight, this is why signalling is provided.

As far as the original question goes, the answer is it depends on whether that procedure is allowed by the railway's rule book. Doing token changes on the move is no longer allowed on the mainline (although that's not to say it doesn't occasionally happen - I was surprised to see it happen somewhere recently at a location I'm not going to write). However doing token changes on the move it part of the heritage railway experience, so personally I don't have a problem with it.

we also need to remember the train is traveling at walking pace and providing the driver has left the brake hand in lap[neutral] position the brakes will instantly apply by use off the red emergency handle on the other side off the cab or after 5-8 seconds in all cabs in the train via the drivers safety device f the driver disabled for any reason .

LowLevel · 24 Feb 2020

It's a feature designed and built into the train - where it has been taken out of use on the national network is more to do with the risk of injury to the driver or signalman either being struck by the token or being caught on it and dragged.

Operating a train is not like operating a car. You don't drive on line of sight.

I suspect you would be horrified at just how little you can see from the cab of many trains in the dark for example - the driver runs on signals and route knowledge and is unlikely to see any obstruction until shortly before they collide with it.

bramling · 24 Feb 2020

LowLevel said:
I suspect you would be horrified at just how little you can see from the cab of many trains in the dark for example - the driver runs on signals and route knowledge and is unlikely to see any obstruction until shortly before they collide with it.

This is so true.

I had a go on one of the shunters on the Weardale Railway, just shunting it up and down in the platform area, and it was rather disconcerting how little was visible. And this is compared to having driven units for real, where themselves visibility isn’t wonderful especially at close range. I hate to imagine what something like a steam loco is like.

As has been said, not a major problem as trains are driven by signals and route knowledge. In the case of the DLR there isn’t even anyone at the sharp end.

Regarding the “on the move” token exchange I saw, it was clearly an old-school signalman, but I was surprised the driver played ball as the fact that it was done so seamlessly suggested it was common practice at that location. Perhaps I was just lucky to see two old-school railwaymen coincide, but it still struck me as a little odd in today’s world.

Trainfan344 · 24 Feb 2020

Token exchange on the move is common practice on the North Norfolk and Severn Valley Railways at least!

underbank · 24 Feb 2020

Trainfan344 said:
Token exchange on the move is common practice on the North Norfolk and Severn Valley Railways at least!

And Nene Valley & Swanage Railways

mdewell · 24 Feb 2020

williamn said:
I still wonder what would happen if a child, animal or object was on the tracks - you wouldn't have time to react and even at that speed could still do significant damage. Sorry to be a H+S bore...

I don't know about all DMUs, but the class 117 that I used to drive on EOR had a seperate brake application handle on the second mans side of the cab, so any driver on the 'wrong' side of the cab could still make an emergency brake application without having to cross the cab.

66701GBRF · 24 Feb 2020

The DSD holdover button on a 66 is still part of the loco prep so its use must be evident somewhere. I have personally seen it used for the driver to drop off a radio to a shunter or a shunter to give a radio to the driver. Stopping a 2000t freight train and then getting it going again (even at 5mph) incurs a time penalty to that service. In essence there is nothing wrong with it providing you are in a somewhat sterile environment and running on clear signals.

Taunton · 24 Feb 2020

I've ridden on dmus behind the driver since they took over from steam on the Taunton-Minehead, probably before some of the commentators above were born. I can tell you that every token exchange away from a platform was always done this way. It's no issue.

Some of the speeds steam crews did the exchange at were something else, fireman (or sometimes driver) out of the cabside, not even holding on as you needed one hand to drop the first token and the other to pick up the second one. The signalman has to pretty well into it as well.

EvanDMU · 25 Feb 2020

I do get a little irritated by discussions like this one. Changing tokens/tablets from the secondman's side of the cab while still moving has been done this way since DMUs were invented, which is why they are fitted with a DSD hold over button on that side of the cab. Should the driver choose to use it there is also an emergency brake (setter) which can easily be reached while in that position. As several people have pointed out this is standard practice at many UK heritage railways (doesn't have to be in the rule book). Perhaps the OP should take some tuition on railway operation before making safety allegations in public?

Strat-tastic · 26 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
When I was a Trainee... I was shown the 'shopping bag' method.

Please elaborate.

ComUtoR · 26 Feb 2020

You hang your shopping bag on the handle.

PupCuff · 28 Feb 2020

In terms of actual risk, its no more dangerous than propelling with a guard/shunter watching the leading end. The train is moving but there's an emergency brake to hand to stop it if needs be and someone has a clear view out the front. It's certainly a method of working you don't see these days, but heritage and mainline are two very different kettles of fish.

6Gman · 28 Feb 2020

hexagon789 said:
Oh right! I don't think even the most practised of contortionists could manage that!

All the driver would need to do is, set the throttle to off, release it and thus the DSD. They then have 5-7 seconds to cross the cab. Hold the DSD holdover button on the secondman's side down, lower the window, collect tocken, close window, release DSD holdover, cross cab, depression throttle handle again. Simples!

That's my understanding of the process anyway. I think the railcar website explains it in one of the manuals you can find on the site.

I recall that was standard practice at Llanrwst "back in the day". If I was travelling with my father he would usually pop into the cab and hand over the token (and collect the new one) for the driver to save him having to do all that. (My father was a driver, and ex-Junction so knew the staff* involved)

* In both senses

hexagon789 · 29 Feb 2020

6Gman said:
I recall that was standard practice at Llanrwst "back in the day". If I was travelling with my father he would usually pop into the cab and hand over the token (and collect the new one) for the driver to save him having to do all that. (My father was a driver, and ex-Junction so knew the staff* involved)

* In both senses

So very much a time-honoured practice

Edders23 · 29 Feb 2020

personally i think it would add interest to the journey although collisions and incidents are not exactly unknown on heritage lines If he was going that slow I doubt there was an issue with safety as I'm sure if something did suddenly appear up ahead there would have been ample opportunity to engage the emergency brake or get back to the driving position and engage the train brakes

and of course if the driver fell out of the window there is always the emergency cord

Deepgreen · 1 Mar 2020

williamn said:
Doesn’t have to be a child. While I take your point, I’m never going to feel 100% comfortable with a train being in motion and there being no one at the controls! Why can’t the train stop for token collection? It’s not as if speed is of the essence on a heritage line.

Token exchange has traditionally been done on the move because signallers could lean out of their boxes and drivers would not have to worry about exact stopping points. Signallers should not have to leave their boxes to walk along lines to collect tokens, etc.

fireftrm · 2 Mar 2020

Trainfan344 said:
Token exchange on the move is common practice on the North Norfolk and Severn Valley Railways at least!

The post isn't about token exchange on the move - its about token exchange from the opposite side of the cab to the driving position, whilst on the move. Quite a different point.

mdewell · 2 Mar 2020

Another slight concern that doesn't seem to have been mnetioned yet, is that stopping a train near, but not actually in a platform might result in someone opening doors and stepping out into thin air. Yes, I know it would be extremely stupid of them, but sillier things have been known to happen. Safer therefore to keep the train moving while exchanging the token.

duffield · 2 Mar 2020

mdewell said:
Another slight concern that doesn't seem to have been mnetioned yet, is that stopping a train near, but not actually in a platform might result in someone opening doors and stepping out into thin air. Yes, I know it would be extremely stupid of them, but sillier things have been known to happen. Safer therefore to keep the train moving while exchanging the token.

But then there's the whole can of worms of people opening the doors when on the move etc.
As I've pointed out before, probably someone sometime is going to do this on some heritage railway and fall out with tragic results. 25mph max running doesn't mean a fall from a moving train can't be fatal. Then the ORR is probably going to set a deadline for all heritage railways to fit some form of secondary door locking. Prudent railways should at least have a plan for this eventuality.

The token exchange near a platform might be a higher risk of this occurring, but with the train stationary would probably be lower impact (more likely a broken ankle than a fatality).

nferguso · 3 Mar 2020

williamn said:
Doesn’t have to be a child. While I take your point, I’m never going to feel 100% comfortable with a train being in motion and there being no one at the controls! Why can’t the train stop for token collection? It’s not as if speed is of the essence on a heritage line.

Williamn, you need to understand how the railways work. They are not cars and the action taken by the driver are absolutely kosher. Let's answer your question another way: "Why does the train have to stop for token collection?" Think of loss of energy and loss of time.

fireftrm · 3 Mar 2020

nferguso said:
Williamn, you need to understand how the railways work. They are not cars and the action taken by the driver are absolutely kosher. Let's answer your question another way: "Why does the train have to stop for token collection?" Think of loss of energy and loss of time.

Token exchange on the move is being looked at on some railways as it is not as safe as when stopped. In most cases the train will be stopping anyway and footplate crews having to walk to the box for the other token, I know not always. However time lost and energy used would be minimal and most of the time non-existent. There are a number of hazards connected with token exchange on the move, all of which are eliminated by doing so on the platform/box with the train stopped. I am really not in agreement with you that the OP's example is 'kosher' and totally safe.

fireftrm · 3 Mar 2020

duffield said:
But then there's the whole can of worms of people opening the doors when on the move etc.
As I've pointed out before, probably someone sometime is going to do this on some heritage railway and fall out with tragic results. 25mph max running doesn't mean a fall from a moving train can't be fatal. Then the ORR is probably going to set a deadline for all heritage railways to fit some form of secondary door locking. Prudent railways should at least have a plan for this eventuality.

The token exchange near a platform might be a higher risk of this occurring, but with the train stationary would probably be lower impact (more likely a broken ankle than a fatality).

Quite agree and many railways are risk assessing token exchange, the drop light window issue has raised this up the priority as leaning out of a cab is the same basic issue, worse where there is an open cab door, or simply open cab

Iskra · 3 Mar 2020

EvanDMU said:
I do get a little irritated by discussions like this one. Changing tokens/tablets from the secondman's side of the cab while still moving has been done this way since DMUs were invented, which is why they are fitted with a DSD hold over button on that side of the cab. Should the driver choose to use it there is also an emergency brake (setter) which can easily be reached while in that position. As several people have pointed out this is standard practice at many UK heritage railways (doesn't have to be in the rule book). Perhaps the OP should take some tuition on railway operation before making safety allegations in public?

He just asked a simple question. No need for the rant.

EvanDMU · 4 Mar 2020

Iskra, the OP was making an allegation of an unsafe working practice. He's been answered by many people on here who are/have been qualified drivers of said traction, and in some cases quite senior operating officials, examiners and assessors but yet the discussion goes on, including statements such as 'many railways are risk assessing token exchange' which is as far as I can tell from working in the industry not true at all. Makes no wonder people get irritated!

underbank · 4 Mar 2020

Ironically, I was watching the Railcam Nene Valley webcam this lunchtime. As usual, signalman was stood in the middle of the level crossing ready to swap the tokens. The driver/fireman didn't manage to hold the token, so the signalman ended up with both. Loco stopped almost immediately, the end of the tender roughly where the signalman was stood, so just a few steps walk to hand it over when stationery. So, clearly, someone was on the controls to bring to a stop pretty quickly.

fireftrm · 5 Mar 2020

EvanDMU said:
including statements such as 'many railways are risk assessing token exchange' which is as far as I can tell from working in the industry not true at all. Makes no wonder people get irritated!

You are so very wrong, you obviously don't work in the right part, or business, within 'the industry'.

High Dyke · 5 Mar 2020

underbank said:
And Nene Valley & Swanage Railways

Staff & Ticket working used to be a challenge...if you were collecting the ticket (once you'd seen the train staff) then you had to see and grab the piece of dangling chain with a key attached.

Dangerous Driving?

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