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Austria to Italy rail services suspended

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Bletchleyite

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Whereas, if the components of a trip have been booked separately - say a train to Milan through NightJet and then a hotel stay there with Marriott, the fact that the NightJet might be cancelled does not mean that consumer law has any bearing on the contract with Marriott.

Indeed, in such circumstances, credit card protection is also not relevant to the Marriott part; the only chance of cost recovery would be through suitable travel insurance.

I'm sure that you know all this

Yes, I do, which is why I specifically said a package tour.

I think most people sound of mind know what one of those is and whether they are booking one or not, and the presence of ATOL protection is a good way to identify one (or the absence of it, e.g. if you book a hotel and flight separately through easyJet's website, say).
 
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FQTV

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Yes, I do, which is why I specifically said a package tour.

I think most people sound of mind know what one of those is and whether they are booking one or not, and the presence of ATOL protection is a good way to identify one (or the absence of it, e.g. if you book a hotel and flight separately through easyJet's website, say).

Perhaps this still does bear addressing.

If a package tour including air travel is booked and an agent or tour operator goes out of business, then depending on a number of other circumstances, the money paid is protected under ATOL and a refund will be due if departure has not yet taken place and some or all of the component parts of the tour will not operate or the monies paid have not been remitted and cannot be remitted to the suppliers of the component parts.

If the tour is already started, it may be possible to continue the trip as planned, at no additional cost, or reimbursement for additional costs incurred may be offered, or a variation to the tour and/or repatriaton at the CAA's convenience will be arranged where the airline is the failed party.

As this thread and forum relates principally to rail travel, it's naturally important to be clear that train plus hotel (for example) is not covered in the same way, and post #23 doesn't specifically refer to air travel. Indeed, a lot of people recognise 'ATOL' but assume that it applies to any kind of package tour, not realising that it's only paclages including air travel.

It's also important to re-emphasise once again that, when booking a package tour, the tour operator's terms and conditions usually provide for them being able to amend the components of the package to fulfil their obligations.

The last high-profile and well-publicised case of ATOL protection swinging into action was, of course, as a result of the failure of Thomas Cook, a tour operator which also operated its own travel agency. It was not the case that an airline operating part of a Thomas Cook tour, or a hotel accomodating Thomas Cook guests failed, nor was it a travel agency acting on behalf of but not as part of the operator that failed.

It's therefore equally not the case that ATOL works in the same way, if indeed at all, when it's a supplier of a component part of a trip that fails.

Indeed, the only other real set of circumstances where ATOL would apply in a similar way to the Thomas Cook case would be if a travel agent, through which an ATOL-protected package provided by a tour operator had been booked, went bust - ie when the agent itself is not the tour operator and they had not bonded or remitted all funds.

If a government bans flights then ATOL does not by default apply. If the tour operator is still operating, then its own terms and conditions will apply first. As an example, they may simply offer a re-route. As they're exceptional circumstances, some of the provisions of the EU261/2004 flight delay and cancellation remedies may not apply either.

If a hotel booked as part of an air travel package goes bust then ATOL does not necessarily apply. Again, the tour operator's terms and conditions take precedence and they may offer an alternative hotel.

So it's important to be clear about both where and when ATOL applies, and what it actually covers, or at least not to think that it's more than it is.

Tangetially, there's also the notion of Linked Travel Arrangements, which are not packages and are not covered in the same way, although a lot of people do mistakenly think that they are.
 

Bletchleyite

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How many tens of thousands of additional guards will be required to close the literally thousands of small local border crossings now open across the continent? Would each of the many Belgian enclaves in Dutch Baarle-Hertog, a few containing only one dwelling, be assigned their own guard from each country to check their passports if someone was just going out to the pub or post office? And what about the Dutch counter-enclaves surrounded by their Belgian exclaves; that could represent at least two border crossings on the way to the coffee shop. Some houses have rooms in both countries. Would a passport be required to go to the bathroom?

Don't be silly. The closure of the main border posts and restriction of international rail and air services would be enough to stop the great majority of travel.
 

ashkeba

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Don't be silly. The closure of the main border posts and restriction of international rail and air services would be enough to stop the great majority of travel.
I think that underestimates just how many border crossings have been (re)opened in the last 30 years. As well as the old customs plazas, there are new motorways laid with no provision for a border post, as well as old country roads reconnected and even forest tracks. There are even roads running along some borders. Closing all of them would be a massive undertaking that will make the Ireland-NI border look simple! If you just close the motorways, of course people will just take to the smaller roads until they find one still open.

I am worried about my Interrail trip and wondering if I should have booked more refundable hotels. Here's hoping it will all be resolved by then, or that the UK government will advise against travel so I can claim on insurance!
 

paddington

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How many tens of thousands of additional guards will be required to close the literally thousands of small local border crossings now open across the continent? Would each of the many Belgian enclaves in Dutch Baarle-Hertog, a few containing only one dwelling, be assigned their own guard from each country to check their passports if someone was just going out to the pub or post office? And what about the Dutch counter-enclaves surrounded by their Belgian exclaves; that could represent at least two border crossings on the way to the coffee shop. Some houses have rooms in both countries. Would a passport be required to go to the bathroom?

Passport controls were removed between Belgium and the Netherlands in 1970 as part of a Benelux agreement. But the situation in Baarle-Hertog has existed since the 1800s. I hardly think there were individual guards at each enclave before 1970!
 

MarkyT

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Passport controls were removed between Belgium and the Netherlands in 1970 as part of a Benelux agreement. But the situation in Baarle-Hertog has existed since the 1800s. I hardly think there were individual guards at each enclave before 1970!
Probably not! I was taking things to an extreme somewhat to make a point! During WW1, Germany could not occupy the enclaves of Belgium within the Dutch enclaves as they couldn't cross Dutch territory to get there. The areas thus became safe havens for Belgian refugees and the Dutch fenced them off and provided facilities and supplies. The Belgians were effectively confined for the duration but were able to coordinate resistance activity out of reach of the occupiers. There wasn't a similar situation in WW2 because Germany occupied both Belgium and the Netherlands concurrently.
 

blackfive460

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I am worried about my Interrail trip and wondering if I should have booked more refundable hotels. Here's hoping it will all be resolved by then, or that the UK government will advise against travel so I can claim on insurance!

Likewise.
If things do seem to be getting difficult and I decide not to go I'll end up standing the loss. Not just pre-paid hotels but Interrail as well as it was a promotional one and non-refundable. Travel insurance won't help either since like many cheap deals it specifically excludes cancellation due to epidemics and pandemics!
 

Bletchleyite

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Likewise.
If things do seem to be getting difficult and I decide not to go I'll end up standing the loss. Not just pre-paid hotels but Interrail as well as it was a promotional one and non-refundable. Travel insurance won't help either since like many cheap deals it specifically excludes cancellation due to epidemics and pandemics!

Travel insurance won't help now because they're all specifically excluding it on new policies because it having an effect this year is near certain, it's just a matter of when.

The lesson to learn from any loss, though, is that (a) don't buy cheap travel insurance, it is worth paying for a quality policy as none of it is particularly expensive, and (b) make sure you have it before you book anything.
 
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