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Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted

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PG

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I have just searched for the 1252 direct train from Edinburgh tomorrow (27 Feb) and the walk up off peak single fare is £75.75.
From next week there is no Standard walk up fare listed for that train. The only walk up fare is First @ £258.50.
Does that mean, going back to my earlier question, that if I board without a ticket and sit in standard class the guard will have to offer me this first class ticket as the only available fare suitable for the journey I am making?
 
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sheff1

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Someone not versed in the weird world of rail fares might actually wonder why a fare priced by LNER was ever valid on the services of their main rail competitor.....

Someone not versed in the weird world of rail fares would have no idea who priced any fare. They would be more likely to wonder why it was not possible to buy a ticket for an end to end journey on a through train.
 

sheff1

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Yes but an ordinary traveller will actually get the 1300 which gets them to London nearly an hour earlier and will still cost £75.75, unless Avanti pull their finger out and sort out a suitable fare.

A suitable fare currently exists. There is no passenger friendly reason why it has, as it stands, been withdrawn from Monday.
 

181

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There may be some loss of flexibility but the walk up off peak single fare has actually gone down quite a bit in price from EDB-LDN. I suspect that if you asked an ordinary person (rather than a routeing guide afficianado) whether they would choose the reduction in fare or route availability, they would rather save the money...

a) Many of the people adversely affected will be making return journeys out by one route and back by another, or single journeys via the West Coast, and their fares aren't (currently) changing.

b) As I said on the earlier thread about the trial fares, why can't we have sensibly-priced walk-up singles without the loss of flexibility? Suggested solutions in this case include:

But hang on a minute, isn't the Edinburgh Super Off Peak Single just a trial fare? It's only that that's causing the issue. So why not make that only routed via York, and add an Any Permitted at the old "10p less than the return" rate until the outcome of that trial is decided?

and

Adjusting the routeing guide so Edinburgh - London wasn't valid via Motherwell/Glasgow would have been better.

On a related subject:

Are there that many people still travelling on walk up tickets for a journey like Edinburgh to Scotland anyway? Can see a few singles for an urgent trip but not much else. Its the sort of journey that will be planned in advance.

I travel about three times per year between the Thames Valley and Scotland (usually a bit further north than Edinburgh/Glasgow), so I'm not directly affected by the subject of this thread, but it could be a sign of a worrying trend. For that journey I usually buy an Off-Peak return -- by the time I come to book, there are rarely any Advances that are cheap enough to be worth putting up with the inconvenience.

Maybe the involvement of an XC leg makes my journey untypical and London-Edinburgh has plenty of advances, but for what it's worth a quick look at NRE suggests that the next Saturday that currently has (at a time permitting me to make the journey in a day including the buses at each end) an Advance for my northbound journey* costing less than half the Off-Peak return is April 18th, and that's only about 20% cheaper and would add over an hour to the journey when I consider bus connections and the need to avoid any risk of missing the first train. (A more convenient train on the same date has Advances that are also less than half an off-peak return, but only by a few pounds). 9th May is the first Saturday with Advances at times and prices that seem worthwhile to me.

*I haven't checked southbound fares but I'm assuming they would be similar.

OK, I haven't looked at Trainsplit (this was a just a quick check), and yes, I do sometimes find worthwhile Advances**, but my experience is that that is a bonus rather than something I expect to happen.

**Usually for shorter journeys -- I'm guessing that on a longer journey there is quite a high chance that the quota of seats at lower price tiers will be sold out for one leg, and as I understand it, without splitting that means that the whole journey will be in a higher tier.
 

Bletchleyite

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a) Many of the people adversely affected will be making return journeys out by one route and back by another, or single journeys via the West Coast, and their fares aren't (currently) changing.

Is it only the single that is changing? My understanding was that ALL Edinburgh to London Terminals walk up fares would be routed York, even the Anytime Return.

I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it if they just routed the trial ticket York and put on a route Carlisle replacement at the "old" fare (which would be de-facto Any Permitted).
 

Hadders

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This really is simple to sort but the railway being the railway it’ll end up being complicated.

Between London and Glasgow there are Any Permitted fares and Via York Fares.

All we need between London and Edinburgh is Any Permitted and Via York. Alternatively via Carlisle instead of Any Permitted would suffice.

Avanti only would be absolutely unacceptable.
 

thedbdiboy

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FWIW, whatever other changes occur there is a 'red line' in Whitehall that the railway must retain walk-on fares. The fact that at this moment in time a few services with a longer journey time than the regular route are missing fares (and which the operator concerned will need to sort) does not mean the end of the walk up railway. There are still some fares missing that need to be added!

Part of the issue right now is that two train operators are involved and each have their own contractual rights as regards fare setting. The changes are being made outside a fares setting round so the appearance of data in systems is not coordinated - because the underlying fares architecture is still built round a nationalised operator that ceased to exist 23 years ago and timescales that were dictated by data limitations in the mid 1990s which is in itself an indicator of why the systems need reform.

One of the reasons the DfT are doing this as a 'trial' is because they want to see what the trade off is between loss of route flexibility compared with being able to provide a better spread of fares on a core route. The decision on how to proceed will be based on customer reaction, train loadings and revenue effects.
 

Hadders

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There are still some fares missing that need to be added!

But what I don’t understand is why the change from Any Permitted to Via York has been made before the missing fares were added?

If people on this forum can see that there are missing fares then I have to question why people who work in the industry, whose day job it is to deal with this sort of stuff, cannot see it.

It’ll end up being more complicated that in was to start with and the railway will blame the outdated BR fares structure which is a red herring.
 

Bletchleyite

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One of the reasons the DfT are doing this as a 'trial' is because they want to see what the trade off is between loss of route flexibility compared with being able to provide a better spread of fares on a core route. The decision on how to proceed will be based on customer reaction, train loadings and revenue effects.

The impact of loss of flexibility on singles is lower because you can get a refund and buy the other one. Removing the admin fee, even better.

The trouble is that that's not how the present fares system works.
 

Journeyman

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Apart from breaking their journey en route or possibly meeting someone en route why would anyone want to do a journey that would take an hour more unless they were on a stupidly cheap advance? Which would affect this journey anyway?

I travel from Edinburgh to London regularly, always on Advances, and I've never seen a ticket that's cheaper on Virgin/Avanti than LNER. In most cases it's significantly more expensive, and takes nearly six hours anyway, so I never use it.
 

Hadders

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There are lots of reasons why someone might want to use the WCML rather then the ECML for this journey. For example:

An overnight journey on the sleeper
Meeting friends or colleagues enroute to travel together.
Avoiding large events (eg racing at York) which could make travelling via the ECML unpleasant, even if a seat reservation is held.
Stopping off on the way.
Disruption due to engineering (ticket acceptance isn’t always in place if there’s an amended timetable)
 

thedbdiboy

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But what I don’t understand is why the change from Any Permitted to Via York has been made before the missing fares were added?

If people on this forum can see that there are missing fares then I have to question why people who work in the industry, whose day job it is to deal with this sort of stuff, cannot see it.

The 'people who work in the industry' do not sit in one place, and the means for managing this sort of change in a co-ordinated way was severely compromised when the BR Fares Offices were broken up in 1995. The DfT are dealing with two seperate TOCs (one operated directly on their behalf), whilst RDG have no power to amend TOC fares outside the London scheme. It all comes back to the lack of a properly empowered strategic body to oversee the railway, which it looks likely is going to be addressed post-Williams. However, the imperative is that waiting several years for the organisation, systems and mechanisms to be changed before making any changes to the fares structure is not an option.

Anyone with any knowledge of large complex bodies like the railway or the NHS will know that those tasked with implementing changes have no easy job; there are complex trade-offs and and lot of politics involved. Those actually doing the complex work in this case are aware of and flag up the issues over which flows and routes need to be added or changed, including workarounds amongst some very dated systems and processes. They also know that through it all the professional integrity of those in the industry will be constantly challenged!
 

Bletchleyite

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and one which might affect some Whitehall types e.g. MPs, so it may even be noticed and mentioned in parliament!

True. Though I suppose with the single-fare pricing the effect is lower - you'd book one way with CS direct and a Super Off Peak Single back if you wanted to do that. That is one advantage of single-fare pricing.

There would, though discussion in depth is one for a new thread, be benefits of taking CS and the Riviera out of the main fares system as many European operators did years ago.
 

liam456

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I unfortunately deride these changes as a Glasgow <-> London traveller looking to save a significant amount of money on my travel if I were in need of a flexible ticket. If I were to buy a London - Edinburgh SSS for £50.00 (Railcard discounted) before this via York route restriction and plan to use it after the restriction is put into place, would I still be allowed on a EUS -> GLC service?
 

Bletchleyite

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I unfortunately deride these changes as a Glasgow <-> London traveller looking to save a significant amount of money on my travel if I were in need of a flexible ticket. If I were to buy a London - Edinburgh SSS for £50.00 (Railcard discounted) before this via York route restriction and plan to use it after the restriction is put into place, would I still be allowed on a EUS -> GLC service?

Yes. The route restriction is what is printed on your ticket and cannot be changed retrospectively. However I believe this is already in the systems for the relevant dates so you won't be able to, if you wanted to do that you would have had to do it a week ago.

If you want to save money on that journey now but want flexibility, there is a trick, though. Buy an Off Peak Single (Online) for your outward journey, selecting for the return journey the cheapest throwaway Advance you can find (doesn't matter when, you're not going to use it). This will probably be cheaper than a regular Off Peak Single.

That or use easyJet.
 

liam456

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Yes. The route restriction is what is printed on your ticket and cannot be changed retrospectively. However I believe this is already in the systems for the relevant dates so you won't be able to, if you wanted to do that you would have had to do it a week ago.

If you want to save money on that journey now but want flexibility, there is a trick, though. Buy an Off Peak Single (Online) for your outward journey, selecting for the return journey the cheapest throwaway Advance you can find (doesn't matter when, you're not going to use it). This will probably be cheaper than a regular Off Peak Single.

That or use easyJet.

It seems like I will have to either revert to such trickery, or go for an Advance on the way down to London and a Saver Half on the way back up for my next trip down home?

Thanks for the confirmation, anyway :frown:
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems like I will have to either revert to such trickery, or go for an Advance on the way down to London and a Saver Half on the way back up for my next trip down home?

Thanks for the confirmation, anyway :frown:

Or, er, why not just purchase an Off Peak Return from Glasgow if you're making a return journey. The single is only of benefit to someone who is genuinely only going one way by rail, e.g. flying/getting a lift/coach the other way or moving house permanently.
 

liam456

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Or, er, why not just purchase an Off Peak Return from Glasgow if you're making a return journey. The single is only of benefit to someone who is genuinely only going one way by rail, e.g. flying/getting a lift/coach the other way or moving house permanently.

Yes, true :rolleyes:
It isn't too bad value really in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, have we been able to pin the change down to either the DfT or a specific TOC? I suspect the media attention around these single-leg fares undercutting other fares from all across the country must have contributed to it? I think I remember an article about using these to save money on Manchester to London fares in a big-name newspaper.
 

swt_passenger

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Yes, true :rolleyes:
It isn't too bad value really in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, have we been able to pin the change down to either the DfT or a specific TOC? I suspect the media attention around these single-leg fares undercutting other fares from all across the country must have contributed to it? I think I remember an article about using these to save money on Manchester to London fares in a big-name newspaper.
Well it’s always possible this earlier thread about possibly starting at Glasgow might have triggered it:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/problem-buying-ticket-at-glasgow-central-today.200062/
Noting post #35 in that thread...
 

Bletchleyite

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swt_passenger

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I think that whilst a couple of people at LNER are active on the forum the company does have other means of gathering information.
Sure, I wasn’t meaning the thread would necessarily need to be read, but the conversation at Glasgow ticket office could have been fed upwards. Probably better to have said “the incident discussed in that thread”...
 

Haywain

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Sure, I wasn’t meaning the thread would necessarily need to be read, but the conversation at Glasgow ticket office could have been fed upwards. Probably better to have said “the incident discussed in that thread”...
I very much doubt it. LNER has plenty of its own staff who can be quite vocal!
 

sheff1

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Is it only the single that is changing? My understanding was that ALL Edinburgh to London Terminals walk up fares would be routed York, even the Anytime Return.

The whole point is that, since the 'trial' started, there are no return fares on the EDB-London Terminals flow.
 
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