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Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted
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How strange that this reason did not feature in the hype when the 'trial' was announced. Said hype was very much focused on increasing flexibility.
thedbdiboy
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It depends on what you mean by flexibility - the trlal means you can by an Advance one way and a semi-flexible ticket the other way instead of having to work out whether an off-peak return will work out more expensive or cheaper.
But you could already do that before the trial.....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Quite.
There was no need to remove the returns (or the Off Peak), simply to make all singles half the price of the relevant return.
Haywain
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Only by committing to the date of travel (for the semi-flexible ticket) in advance. Now that isn’t necessary.
Worringly, it now emerges that Transport Focus (TF) gave their approval to the changes. The TF website states "Our mission is to get the best deal for passengers ...", so either
1) TF believe the inability to purchase a walk up ticket for an end to end journey on a through train is a good deal for passengers.
or
2) They do not believe that is an accpetable outcome, but their views were ignored by the people making the changes.
or
3) TF did not have the competence to identify the side effects of the proposed change.
If 2) was the case one would expect TF to make their feelings known via media statements or, at the very least, on their website. As neither is the case, we are left with options 1) or 3) neither of which bodes well for any meaningful scrutiny of future attempts by DfT/RDG to reduce flexibility and choice.
1) TF believe the inability to purchase a walk up ticket for an end to end journey on a through train is a good deal for passengers.
or
2) They do not believe that is an accpetable outcome, but their views were ignored by the people making the changes.
or
3) TF did not have the competence to identify the side effects of the proposed change.
If 2) was the case one would expect TF to make their feelings known via media statements or, at the very least, on their website. As neither is the case, we are left with options 1) or 3) neither of which bodes well for any meaningful scrutiny of future attempts by DfT/RDG to reduce flexibility and choice.
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What is now necessary though is the purchase of multiple tickets, or an overdistance ticket, if you want to make a walk up end to end journey on a direct train between Euston and Edinburgh. Neither sounds like something which increases flexibility or "boosts customer confidence in booking train tickets", which was another supposed aim of the 'trial'.
Haywain
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I am not making a defence of the situation but stating that what is there now, as referenced in the quoted comment, is not the same as what was there before.
Fair enough.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I wonder if TF were asked:
"We only ever intended this ticket to be valid via York. Should we amend the routeing guide, so passengers can't see it and get caught out, or should we put route York on the ticket?"
Anyone with any sense would answer that with "put it on the ticket".
"We only ever intended this ticket to be valid via York. Should we amend the routeing guide, so passengers can't see it and get caught out, or should we put route York on the ticket?"
Anyone with any sense would answer that with "put it on the ticket".
I would expect a competent watchdog organisation to immediately challenge an assertion that "We only ever intended this ticket to be valid via York." As posted up thread, an Edinburgh to London ticket has been valid via routes avoiding York for decades.
If I were trying to get this through on the nod...
"This ticket is technically valid via other routes for historical reasons, but is only intended to be valid via York. Should we amend the routeing guide, so passengers can't see it and get caught out, or should we put route York on the ticket?"
Challenged by whom?
When is the Williams report due out? Is it still being drafted?
Perhaps any publicity campaign for the new fares needs to say if you spot any problems please contact this e-mail address and may be also say whilst we implement these changes, you may have difficult booking some train tickets. That will be resolved in due course so please bear with us in the mean time.
I appreciate you are talking about it on here but a lot of the travelling public don't visit this site [their loss of course
]!Let's also remember there are wider issues with the routing guide, such as the ability or in this case lack of ability to purchase tickets when rail replacement buses are running and some of these issues don't seem to be being fixed for whatever reason.
Who is coordinating things so they issues get resolved?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I'd imagine they were asked something like that.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Or maybe the question went more like why have ticket sales from Edinburgh to London taken off and tickets from Edinburgh to the midlands stopped completely
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Given that most people are not making single journeys I would imagine it was actually relatively small.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
If you think so
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you think so
The whole business model is predicated on relatively few passengers making walk-up single journeys. Otherwise the impact on income would be too great to even consider it.
thedbdiboy
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Challenged by whom?
When is the Williams report due out? Is it still being drafted?
Perhaps any publicity campaign for the new fares needs to say if you spot any problems please contact this e-mail address and may be also say whilst we implement these changes, you may have difficult booking some train tickets. That will be resolved in due course so please bear with us in the mean time.
I appreciate you are talking about it on here but a lot of the travelling public don't visit this site [their loss of course
Let's also remember there are wider issues with the routing guide, such as the ability or in this case lack of ability to purchase tickets when rail replacement buses are running and some of these issues don't seem to be being fixed for whatever reason.
Who is coordinating things so they issues get resolved?
We'd all love to know when the Williams Review White Paper will be issued - it is up to the Government and all anyone knows is that it should be 'soon'. There also needs to be a confirmed funding structure for a properly equipped programme to support fares, systems and retailing reform, but this needs to wait for the Budget (currently scheduled for March 11). Until then the three agencies involved are the DfT (who are the only ones with actual power to direct things); TOCs (whether under DfT ownership or franchised) who contractually are the only ones who can actually change any fares; and RDG, who can provide advice, support and work the mechanisms for fare changes but are not able to either direct the changes or act independently of TOCs.
Whilst it is possible after a fashion to work out how or why things are being done, I would concur that the approach now makes it hard to work out who exactly is in charge - it is precisely this issue in relation to the industry as a whole that caused the Williams Rail Review to be commissioned and why its findings need to be published to enable a the move towards a more obviously transparent approach.
PG
Established Member
Probably waiting for some bad news day to ease it out without too much scrutiny or failing that maybe Thursday 9th April late afternoon; 2 bank holidays and a weekend before anyone bothers to look at it...
thedbdiboy
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It's looking unlikely that there will be a great deal of detail in Williams, unlikely to be enough to be considered 'bad news' or 'good news' - the key output is likely to be what structure will be put in place to manage the railway, and then all the 'problems' can be handed to them.
What is the impact on fare evasion or wrong train boarding?
Say someone has an advance for the 1200 but catches the 1230 with the same operator(when there is no disruption caused by the railway) they’re to be sold the cheapest available walk up fare (not an anytime) which is now half what it would have been. If they had an any permitted (At old pricing) and a via York, and a passenger had an advance for the 1200 would they sell the any permitted single or the via York one. We know which they should sell.
Say someone has an advance for the 1200 but catches the 1230 with the same operator(when there is no disruption caused by the railway) they’re to be sold the cheapest available walk up fare (not an anytime) which is now half what it would have been. If they had an any permitted (At old pricing) and a via York, and a passenger had an advance for the 1200 would they sell the any permitted single or the via York one. We know which they should sell.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There isn't an Any Permitted one, that's the whole point of this discussion.
Haywain
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As the fares do not and will not exist concurrently it is impossible to have such a choice. And, in any event, the change is to the routeing of the fare and not the price.
That is my point. I'm referring to if they DID re-instate an any permitted ticket as many have suggested as a positive thing.
Paul Duck
Member
The issue becomes 'interesting' in June when Kings Cross is shut again and passengers needing to travel to and from London to and from Leeds and Newcastle will not be permitted via Sheffield on these trial fares. This is what a few passengers are doing this weekend. Suppose they will still have the option of going Via Cambridge.
Even more interesting if Scotland qualify for the Euros and are playing England at Wembley on the Friday night before the weekend closure. Puts potentially a lot of pressure on Euston.
Even more interesting if Scotland qualify for the Euros and are playing England at Wembley on the Friday night before the weekend closure. Puts potentially a lot of pressure on Euston.
If they are making a return journey, they can of course still retain validity via Sheffield into St Pancras for no extra cost by booking to e.g. Kentish Town, thus circumventing the trial tickets.
But you are right that if passengers want a single they would be unfairly penalised. LNER did say they would introduce easements as necessary during engineering works, so it will be interesting to see if they do this.
Although I'm not sure how many affected passengers would know that.
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