Sugar Loaf Station Closure

DelW · 28 Feb 2020

Revised doesn't necessarily mean speeded up...

I don't know of a plan B if the 170s don't go there, I suppose the 150/153 fleet could be kept going but I doubt it would be popular.

Could the 170s be regeared for lower speed but better acceleration without making them too slow on the main line sections?

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edwin_m · 28 Feb 2020

196s would probably work better, with their multi-speed gearboxes.

Nickincornwall · 28 Feb 2020

FelixtheCat said:
I've just noticed that Sugar Loaf station is being closed until the 27th of February for "major refusbishment works". Taxis are being provided to/from Llanwrtyd.

What will these works entail?

(Source: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/SUG/details.html)

At least Sugar Loaf is being renewed and kept open. Some may recall New Hadley on the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line which needed renovation British Rail days, it was deemed uneconomic to repair and was closed. Good old British Rail eh

Rhydgaled · 28 Feb 2020

DelW said:
Revised doesn't necessarily mean speeded up...

I don't know of a plan B if the 170s don't go there, I suppose the 150/153 fleet could be kept going but I doubt it would be popular.

I don't know either, but if it were up to me it would be 156s (EMR are expected to release some) or the 2-car 175s (which have worked the line in the past and with their fairly big windows would be good for a line marketed as scenic).

DelW said:
Could the 170s be regeared for lower speed but better acceleration without making them too slow on the main line sections?

I think you'd have a very small micro-fleet (just four 2-car units isn't it?) of re-geared 170s if you did that. I suppose you would do the 3-car TfW units as well, which in gearing terms might work ok for Pembroke Dock - Swansea but I'm not sure what else the 170s would be used on. My hope is a Swansea metro (eg. Swansea - Gorseinon - Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen).

jimm · 29 Feb 2020

DelW said:
Closing Sugar Loaf would have a negligible effect on timings, as few trains actually stop anyway and line speed isn't high there. Dealing with some of the open level crossings with 5mph (?) limits might help more.

The problem with a good few of those crossings is that they are the only access to and from houses or to parts of farms, so closure isn't really an option as no one is going to shell out for bridges.

Nickincornwall said:
At least Sugar Loaf is being renewed and kept open. Some may recall New Hadley on the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line which needed renovation British Rail days, it was deemed uneconomic to repair and was closed. Good old British Rail eh

New Hadley was poorly located, being a 1930s GWR effort, not that near the place it purported to serve (like Combe and Finstock on the Cotswold Line), had very short timber platforms and it could only be reached on footpaths. Never mind that Telford Central was about to open anyway, with Wellington and Oakengates also close by.

davetheguard · 29 Feb 2020

jimm said:
The problem with a good few of those crossings is that they are the only access to and from houses or to parts of farms, so closure isn't really an option as no one is going to shell out for bridges.

New Hadley was poorly located, being a 1930s GWR effort, not that near the place it purported to serve (like Combe and Finstock on the Cotswold Line), had very short timber platforms and it could only be reached on footpaths. Never mind that Telford Central was about to open anyway, with Wellington and Oakengates also close by.

Plus, of course, British Rail never actually closed anything. The final decision was -and still is- the Transport Minister's.

DelW · 29 Feb 2020

jimm said:
The problem with a good few of those crossings is that they are the only access to and from houses or to parts of farms, so closure isn't really an option as no one is going to shell out for bridges.

I was thinking mainly of the remaining open crossings, particularly Berthddu near Sugar Loaf which slows trains much more than the halt itself does for most trains. Is there any reason (other than money as ever) why that and the few other open crossings couldn't be converted to user-worked as all the nearby ones are?

There are a huge number of UWCs throughout the line, so I agree bridges could never be an economic option for them.

edwin_m · 29 Feb 2020

DelW said:
I was thinking mainly of the remaining open crossings, particularly Berthddu near Sugar Loaf which slows trains much more than the halt itself does for most trains. Is there any reason (other than money as ever) why that and the few other open crossings couldn't be converted to user-worked as all the nearby ones are?

There are a huge number of UWCs throughout the line, so I agree bridges could never be an economic option for them.

UWCs are only supposed to be used by the "registered users" and their visitors. Despite this they are implicated in many accidents, particularly as people are likely to receive many more and varied visitors than historically when it was usually just the farm workers and the postman. So I don't think it would be acceptable to convert crossings with more protection to create more UWCs. The open crossings with lights are probably on public roads where there is more traffic in total, including people passing by who wouldn't be familiar with UWCs.

One left field solution might be to consider fitting trains using the line with track brakes which would allow a quicker stop in emergency. This might allow some of the slow speeds on open crossings to be increased, as well as increasing safety at UWCs.

jimm · 1 Mar 2020

DelW said:
I was thinking mainly of the remaining open crossings, particularly Berthddu near Sugar Loaf which slows trains much more than the halt itself does for most trains. Is there any reason (other than money as ever) why that and the few other open crossings couldn't be converted to user-worked as all the nearby ones are?

There are a huge number of UWCs throughout the line, so I agree bridges could never be an economic option for them.

edwin_m said:
UWCs are only supposed to be used by the "registered users" and their visitors. Despite this they are implicated in many accidents, particularly as people are likely to receive many more and varied visitors than historically when it was usually just the farm workers and the postman. So I don't think it would be acceptable to convert crossings with more protection to create more UWCs. The open crossings with lights are probably on public roads where there is more traffic in total, including people passing by who wouldn't be familiar with UWCs.

One left field solution might be to consider fitting trains using the line with track brakes which would allow a quicker stop in emergency. This might allow some of the slow speeds on open crossings to be increased, as well as increasing safety at UWCs.

The open crossings with lights are indeed public roads - and no one is going to turn them into user-worked crossings. A balance has to be struck somewhere between a combination of lightly-used roads and a lightly-used railway line (with request stops galore, never mind any speed/compulsory stop restrictions due to level crossings). It was never a fast route and even with manned level crossings the faster timings end-to-end were only achieved by missing out all but the main stations and with the aid of a more direct route into Swansea.

miami · 2 Mar 2020

I've wondered why there isn't an evening train to Llandrindod, even if nothing further. The last train from Crewe is 1720, arriving Llandrindod just before 2000. That means a 1630 departure from Manchester, 1605 from Liverpool, 1540 from London, or 1700 from Birmingham.

A 2020 Crewe-Llandrindod service, arriving 2300, then return to Shrewsbury for 0100 would give a much more reasonable last train time, and would seem to match with the idea behind the early train. Even a 1920 would offer more realistic journeys.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2020

miami said:
I've wondered why there isn't an evening train to Llandrindod, even if nothing further. The last train from Crewe is 1720, arriving Llandrindod just before 2000. That means a 1630 departure from Manchester, 1605 from Liverpool, 1540 from London, or 1700 from Birmingham.

A 2020 Crewe-Llandrindod service, arriving 2300, then return to Shrewsbury for 0100 would give a much more reasonable last train time, and would seem to match with the idea behind the early train. Even a 1920 would offer more realistic journeys.

This kind of thing is common on rural lines and renders them useless for a weekend away, for example.

Llanigraham · 2 Mar 2020

miami said:
I've wondered why there isn't an evening train to Llandrindod, even if nothing further. The last train from Crewe is 1720, arriving Llandrindod just before 2000. That means a 1630 departure from Manchester, 1605 from Liverpool, 1540 from London, or 1700 from Birmingham.

A 2020 Crewe-Llandrindod service, arriving 2300, then return to Shrewsbury for 0100 would give a much more reasonable last train time, and would seem to match with the idea behind the early train. Even a 1920 would offer more realistic journeys.

Firstly would there actually be any demand for such a service, and secondly arriving at Shrewsbury that late would mean keeping the station open, which it isn't at the moment.

Rhydgaled · 4 Mar 2020

miami said:
A 2020 Crewe-Llandrindod service, arriving 2300, then return to Shrewsbury for 0100 would give a much more reasonable last train time, and would seem to match with the idea behind the early train.

I think the issue with that is the 23:?? Llandrindod to Shrewsbury arriving 1am would essentially be an ECS move with little or no prospect of revenue (there's a similar issue with the already existing morning service of course). The answer in my mind is to open a crew signing on/off point in Llandrindod and stable two units there overnight (one from Shrewsbury and one from Swansea) which would form the first train in each direction next morning. There are stabling sidings there already I believe (the Royal Welsh Show special train is left there during the day when it runs I think).

miami · 4 Mar 2020

Llanigraham said:
Firstly would there actually be any demand for such a service, and secondly arriving at Shrewsbury that late would mean keeping the station open, which it isn't at the moment.

There's a 0022 Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury service arriving 0101

It's more about demand getting back for stations to Llandrindod after a full day away.

Llanigraham · 4 Mar 2020

miami said:
There's a 0022 Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury service arriving 0101

That's changed then, sorry.

miami said:
It's more about demand getting back for stations to Llandrindod after a full day away.

As I said, what demand?
This area is sparsely populated, and Llan'dod doesn't support large passenger numbers even in the middle of the day.

miami · 5 Mar 2020

I'm assuming there's a reason they put the early morning train from LLandrindod, I'd assume the same people would want to get back?

PHILIPE · 5 Mar 2020

miami said:
I'm assuming there's a reason they put the early morning train from LLandrindod, I'd assume the same people would want to get back?

The Welsh Government wanted to be able to brag about financing additional trains on the line. What happened was that to fit this in, there had to be re timings of the whole service because of the constraints in operating the line due to the single line stretches and resulting trains having to wait longer at crossing points to await the train coming in the opposite direction. Also messed up journeys for passengers who wanted to go from Shrewsbury to Llandrindod Wells on day outings as well as students travelling to college in Shrewsbury.
.

Rhydgaled · 6 Mar 2020

Llanigraham said:
As I said, what demand?
This area is sparsely populated, and Llan'dod doesn't support large passenger numbers even in the middle of the day.

40k entries and exists isn't bad for a station with only 4 or 5 very slow trains per day in my view. It could do with some fast trains (not calling at Sugar Loaf for example) in addition to the current stoppers and a later evening stopper terminating at Llandrindod (and staying the night) in my view.

krus_aragon · 6 Mar 2020

Network Rail have tweeted this morning that the station has reopened, complete with some pictures: https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWAL/status/1235854897918038018

It looks like they took the opportunity to refurbish the entire platform face, as well as the steps.

DelW · 6 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
Network Rail have tweeted this morning that the station has reopened, complete with some pictures: https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWAL/status/1235854897918038018

It looks like they took the opportunity to refurbish the entire platform face, as well as the steps.

That looks a great deal better than it did when I was last there a few years ago. Much more permanent looking steps too.

SteveM70 · 6 Mar 2020

Rhydgaled said:
The answer in my mind is to open a crew signing on/off point in Llandrindod and stable two units there overnight (one from Shrewsbury and one from Swansea) which would form the first train in each direction next morning

A signing on point with how many crew based there? Surely it’d be a very low number, and make holiday/sickness cover more difficult, as is typically the case with small pools of staff.

Rhydgaled · 6 Mar 2020

SteveM70 said:
A signing on point with how many crew based there? Surely it’d be a very low number, and make holiday/sickness cover more difficult, as is typically the case with small pools of staff.

My suggestion was two units stabling there which I believe is the same as Pwllheli so I imagine the staffing arangements would be the same as that.

Sugar Loaf Station Closure

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