TOCs and the use of cheap agency platform staff

pompeyfan · 1 Mar 2020

Edders23 said:
clearly you live in about the only area of the country which isn't over competitive the average taxi driver in most parts of the uk struggle to earn £5 an hour !!

even the London boys earn much less than 10 years ago

what a load of guff. Private hire drivers, even ones that work days, can make a decent wedge. It’s when car lessors start charging Eastern European drivers a large chunk for accommodation, insurance and the radio/box/smartphone that things then become sour and potentially dangerous.

back to the actual topic though.

I disagree with agency staff doing what should be TOC jobs because it’s immoral, they should be on the same T&Cs etc as employed staff and to be fair it’s subconsciously what’s getting some guards backs up. They’re scared the rug will be pulled from beneath them and they’ll be replaced by agency staff on much reduced T&Cs inc. pay if they don’t keep an operational role.

I think it’s wrong agency staff are being used to fulfil the role of a traditional Ro2 as quoted above in that on-trak advert, again due to T&Cs.

is it true that if a TOC wishes to recruit a member of agency staff, they have to pay a finders fee?

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Robertj21a · 1 Mar 2020

pompeyfan said:
what a load of guff. Private hire drivers, even ones that work days, can make a decent wedge. It’s when car lessors start charging Eastern European drivers a large chunk for accommodation, insurance and the radio/box/smartphone that things then become sour and potentially dangerous.

back to the actual topic though.

I disagree with agency staff doing what should be TOC jobs because it’s immoral, they should be on the same T&Cs etc as employed staff and to be fair it’s subconsciously what’s getting some guards backs up. They’re scared the rug will be pulled from beneath them and they’ll be replaced by agency staff on much reduced T&Cs inc. pay if they don’t keep an operational role.

I think it’s wrong agency staff are being used to fulfil the role of a traditional Ro2 as quoted above in that on-trak advert, again due to T&Cs.

is it true that if a TOC wishes to recruit a member of agency staff, they have to pay a finders fee?

I don't know about TOCs but it's perfectly normal for any company to pay an agency for supplying staff.

Dr Day · 1 Mar 2020

Afaik all agency staff are ‘auto-enrolled’ into a (defined contribution) pension scheme, unless they decide to opt out.
Agencies still have legal obligations as employers.

SlimJim1694 · 1 Mar 2020

I guess all the people who think agencies are great would be quite happy to receive no sick pay, take home lower wages than the people who do the job permanently and be laid off at a moment's notice themselves, wondering how they are going to feed their family or pay the rent.

Robertj21a · 1 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
I guess all the people who think agencies are great would be quite happy to receive no sick pay, take home lower wages than the people who do the job permanently and be laid off at a moment's notice themselves, wondering how they are going to feed their family or pay the rent.

It sounds like you don't have all the facts. Needless to say, like any business, there are good and bad agencies. Don't tar them all with the same brush.

SlimJim1694 · 1 Mar 2020

Robertj21a said:
It sounds like you don't have all the facts. Needless to say, like any business, there are good and bad agencies. Don't tar them all with the same brush.

So you'd be happy working for an agency while your co-workers doing exactly the same job enjoyed the benefits of permanent employment?

Ivor · 1 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
So you'd be happy working for an agency while your co-workers doing exactly the same job enjoyed the benefits of permanent employment?

I’ve given the agency details to a few searching for work of which a couple older like myself & when I’ve outlined the job by way of pay, conditions, shifts as & when, sometimes no shifts for weeks they look at me as if I’m mad! :rolleyes:

I’m coming up two years on the railway & I love it but trying to pay the bills on it isn’t possible but we all get to a stage in life where we have to do what we have to do.

I’ve bored everyone on my other posts re trying many times to get a ‘proper job’ with the TOC & I’ve also grumbled re the recruitment process or in my case & others there was no process but with that said of late many have been lucky enough to have made the transition & good luck to them.

@SlimJim1694 I can see you are one to have an insight to how the ‘agency world’ operates :smile:

SlimJim1694 · 1 Mar 2020

Ivor said:
I can see you are one to have an insight to how the ‘agency world’ operates

I have never worked for an agency nor ever claimed to know loads about it. I just think if it's so great why aren't all the people who sing their praises queuing up to work for agencies themselves? Answer: because its crap.

My view, controversial as some people may find it, is that everyone doing the same job should be on the same pay and conditions and have the same job security. I'm sure there are some people who like working for agencies, and of course the people who run them make a nice packet but in general I don't think agencies, zero hours or "self employment" gig economy jobs have any place in society. That's my personal opinion. I don't need to have worked for an agency to hold it.

Ivor · 1 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
I have never worked for an agency nor ever claimed to know loads about it. I just think if it's so great why aren't all the people who sing their praises queuing up to work for agencies themselves? Answer: because its crap.

My view, controversial as some people may find it, is that everyone doing the same job should be on the same pay and conditions and have the same job security. I'm sure there are some people who like working for agencies, and of course the people who run them make a nice packet but in general I don't think agencies, zero hours or "self employment" gig economy jobs have any place in society. That's my personal opinion. I don't need to have worked for an agency to hold it.

No sorry wasn’t a ’dig’ I genuinely meant you actually can see it from the other side of the fence even though you are not an agency worker.

I know there was talk a few years ago in Government they were going to outlaw zero hour contracts, it’ll never happen for the very reasons as you say of putting everyone on the same T&Cs

Yes you’re right agency work is crap!

ComUtoR · 1 Mar 2020

Agency work serves a purpose. Millions of people would be out of work if it didn't exist.

If you are an agency worker and have been employed by the same place for 12 weeks or more. You are entitled to the same pay as a permanent employee.

https://archive.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=6493#payrights

After passing the 12-week qualifying period, an agency worker must receive the same pay as staff directly employed by the hiring organisation unless they are on a pay between assignments contract.

The right to the receive the same pay includes: basic pay, holiday pay, individual performance-related bonuses, commission, overtime pay, allowances for working shifts or unsociable hours.

The right to receive the same pay does not include: bonuses linked solely to company performance or to reward long-term loyalty, expenses, pensions, sick pay, redundancy pay, or maternity, paternity, shared parental and adoption pay.

Ivor · 1 Mar 2020

ComUtoR said:
Agency work serves a purpose. Millions of people would be out of work if it didn't exist.

If you are an agency worker and have been employed by the same place for 12 weeks or more. You are entitled to the same pay as a permanent employee.

https://archive.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=6493#payrights

Thanks for this but as an example an agency person doing platform customer service approx 75p-£1 an hour (based on location) above minimum wage then no way is the PAYE TOC employee being paid the same.

I honestly wouldn’t know their hourly rate but I’m positive it will be dramatically higher plus their perks including free train travel including family members, sick pay, decent pension, proper rest breaks etc & all power to their elbow too.

David57 · 1 Mar 2020

I worked for an agency that employed on a 12 week contract, then was asked to resign again for another 12 weeks to get round the pay parity rules.
Needless to say, I only worked one 12 week contract!

SlimJim1694 · 1 Mar 2020

Ivor said:
No sorry wasn’t a ’dig’ I genuinely meant lyou actually can see it from the other side of the fence even though you are not an agency worker.

Sorry mate, I misunderstood what you were saying.

ComUtoR said:
Agency work serves a purpose. Millions of people would be out of work if it didn't exist.

If you are an agency worker and have been employed by the same place for 12 weeks or more. You are entitled to the same pay as a permanent employee.

https://archive.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=6493#payrights

With all due respect, that's not true. The jobs would still need doing. Take factories, distribution centres, driving jobs etc that are full of agency and gig economy workers. If the people employed there were directly employed on decent permanent contracts it would dent the profits of the companies that are exploiting them, it wouldnt negate the demand for these jobs to be done. Ok factories, where possible, may move overseas (most of them already have), but deliveries still need to be made, coffee still needs to be served and so on.

With regards to the law what do you think happens when an agency or zero hours worker tries to complain? What do you think happens when they try to join a union? What do you think happens when they try to demand their rights? All of a sudden they will find they are not needed any more. The vast majority of people working like this can't afford to get laid off so they put up with it and keep quiet. That is one of the reasons why this kind of employment is favoured by companies.

Ivor · 1 Mar 2020

David57 said:
I worked for an agency that employed on a 12 week contract, then was asked to resign again for another 12 weeks to get round the pay parity rules.
Needless to say, I only worked one 12 week contract!

Yes plus if you’re posted at various locations the 12 week process starts again.

Ivor · 1 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
Sorry mate, I misunderstood what you were saying

No problem I guessed :smile:

Robertj21a · 1 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
So you'd be happy working for an agency while your co-workers doing exactly the same job enjoyed the benefits of permanent employment?

If I wanted a job and it suited me to work for an agency I would do whatever the job required. If you don't want to work for an agency then nobody is forcing you.
An employer should recruit whoever he needs, sometimes agency staff will be the best way forward.

pt_mad · 1 Mar 2020

Robertj21a said:
If I wanted a job and it suited me to work for an agency I would do whatever the job required. If you don't want to work for an agency then nobody is forcing you.

Could it not be possible the department of work and pensions is forcing some people? I should imagine that across the wider non railway job market they indeed likely will be. I.e. person takes agency job as nothing else being offered to them or that they can travel to etc etc. And refusal of interview or job offer could come with sanctions to universal credit.

Robertj21a · 1 Mar 2020

pt_mad said:
Could it not be possible the department of work and pensions is forcing some people? I should imagine that across the wider non railway job market they indeed likely will be. I.e. person takes agency job as nothing else being offered to them or that they can travel to etc etc. And refusal of interview or job offer could come with sanctions to universal credit.

Not sure any of that is relevant to this thread.

Antman · 2 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
So you'd be happy working for an agency while your co-workers doing exactly the same job enjoyed the benefits of permanent employment?

Not everybody wants permanent employment.

TOCs and the use of cheap agency platform staff

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