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Thoughts on Compartments

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Mogz

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Journeyman said:
Quick bit of Googling threw up a picture.

5847898507_66d3ee2fdd_b.jpg


As you can see, it has a lot of family resemblance to Networker/Electrostar/Turbostar vehicles, with doors in pockets a bit like the class 376. It's 20 metres long, of course, like the chassis it was built on (a 4-CIG driving trailer).

It was built in 1997, and made a few public appearances - apparently Connex South Central were interested. The concept was a sound one - the electrical equipment and bogies of SR EMUs were bulletproof and reliable, but the bodies failed to meet modern safety and accessibility standards. They would have been quite cheap to produce, by the looks of things, but before long all three of the main ex-Southern TOCs decided on large new builds.

This vehicle survived until 2012.

I'm guessing you may be mixing this up a bit with the plans NSE had to build various other classes in the Networker family - certainly there were main-line, doors-at-the-ends vehicles planned for that, which may or may not have included compartments. Obviously those got shelved in the run-up to privatisation. Info here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Classes_371,_381_and_471
Click to expand...


THAT was built on a MK1 chassis???

That’s almost Frankensteinian!

Not that I would advocate compartments on commuter trains (my position is and always has been that a few should be available in each class on mostly open saloon IC/XC trains for those that want them), I believe that the Merseyrail Class 502 and 503 stock had a couple of First Class compartments which were either removed or declassified in 1971.

I think I remember seeing a picture of one once but can’t find it online.

They were 1/3-2/3 dual leaf sliding door stock, so it can be done (not that you would want to on a commuter service...)
 
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Journeyman

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Mogz said:
THAT was built on a MK1 chassis???

That’s almost Frankensteinian!
Click to expand...

It was indeed! Unfortunately you can't see the B4 bogies in that picture. It carries on the grand tradition of the Southern reusing stuff until it fell to pieces. The EPBs survived until the nineties, but bits of them dated back to the twenties.

Have you seen the Pacer-style body that was grafted onto a Mark 1 chassis as well?

Mogz said:
Not that I would advocate compartments on commuter trains (my position is and always has been that a few should be available in each class on mostly open saloon IC/XC trains for those that want them), I believe that the Merseyrail Class 502 and 503 stock had a couple of First Class compartments which were either removed or declassified in 1971.
Click to expand...

The 502s and 503s were always 100% saloon and never had compartments. The first class sections were located between sets of doors, very much like the class 317s of later years.
 
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Journeyman

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Mogz

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Journeyman said:
It's interesting to see that, obviously bit of an outlier compared to the way the rest of the industry was going. If they'd been built, I suspect we'd have seen them opened out by now, like the 442s.
Click to expand...

That’s true. I suppose we must remember that there is still stock running today (the 442s) which once had compartments but do no longer.

There must have been an official reason that they were opened out, after all.
 
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Mogz said:
That’s true. I suppose we must remember that there is still stock running today (the 442s) which once had compartments but do no longer.

There must have been an official reason that they were opened out, after all.
Click to expand...

The main reason, I think, is that when transferred to Gatwick Express, there was too much first class accommodation, and the first class area was relocated to a part of the train of a more suitable size. The trains were given a pretty significant refurb at the same time as well, with new seats throughout.

It's interesting that the compartments being opened out was clearly quite straightforward, so none of the partitions appeared to be load-bearing. This is unlike the Mark 3 sleepers, where attempts to open the vehicles out proved to weaken the body structure too much.
 
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Journeyman said:
It's interesting that the compartments being opened out was clearly quite straightforward, so none of the partitions appeared to be load-bearing. This is unlike the Mark 3 sleepers, where attempts to open the vehicles out proved to weaken the body structure too much.
Click to expand...

I thought with those it wasn't the compartments but rather the windows?
 
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Bletchleyite said:
I thought with those it wasn't the compartments but rather the windows?
Click to expand...

Let's just say there's been some lively debate about this, and we may never know the whole truth behind it, but clearly the problems were insurmountable. I don't think there was enough serious interest in the proposals to convert them into day coaches, for the resources to be thrown at rectifying it all.
 
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Now this one might set the cat amongst the pigeons, so feel free to tell me that it's unrealistic/ uneconomic/ should be in the speculative ideas section...

A fleet of couchette coaches that could be used as day compartment stock for very long distance routes during the day (eg Penzance-Aberdeen) and converted to six and four bunk couchettes at night as a budget sleeper option.

Rather like the French all-couchette offering of yesteryear where 2nd class meant a berth in a six bunk couchette and 1st class meant a berth in a four bunk, which was a six bunk with the middle bunk folded up to give everyone more room.

A café bar for food rather than the gourmet restaurant offerings of the Caledonian Sleeper lounge car or the Night Riviera.

Cheap (relatively speaking), cheerful and would allow a journey from Cornwall to Scotland or vice versa in one night, leaving and arriving at sociable hours. Perhaps it could be routed through some larger centres of population such as Reading, Oxford, Birmingham, Stafford, Manchester, Preston, or perhaps Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, for maximum ridership?

Such stock would then not be standing idle all day waiting for a single service and would therefore pay its way. Thoughts?
 
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Mogz said:
Now this one might set the cat amongst the pigeons, so feel free to tell me that it's unrealistic/ uneconomic/ should be in the speculative ideas section...

A fleet of couchette coaches that could be used as day compartment stock for very long distance routes during the day (eg Penzance-Aberdeen) and converted to six and four bunk couchettes at night as a budget sleeper option.

Rather like the French all-couchette offering of yesteryear where 2nd class meant a berth in a six bunk couchette and 1st class meant a berth in a four bunk, which was a six bunk with the middle bunk folded up to give everyone more room.

A café bar for food rather than the gourmet restaurant offerings of the Caledonian Sleeper lounge car or the Night Riviera.

Cheap (relatively speaking), cheerful and would allow a journey from Cornwall to Scotland or vice versa in one night, leaving and arriving at sociable hours. Perhaps it could be routed through some larger centres of population such as Reading, Oxford, Birmingham, Stafford, Manchester, Preston, or perhaps Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, for maximum ridership?

Such stock would then not be standing idle all day waiting for a single service and would therefore pay its way. Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I had a similar idea as detailed in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/open-access-anglo-scottish-sleeper.182551/

I didn't envisage daytime use though.
 
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Mogz said:
Now this one might set the cat amongst the pigeons, so feel free to tell me that it's unrealistic/ uneconomic/ should be in the speculative ideas section...

A fleet of couchette coaches that could be used as day compartment stock for very long distance routes during the day (eg Penzance-Aberdeen) and converted to six and four bunk couchettes at night as a budget sleeper option.

Rather like the French all-couchette offering of yesteryear where 2nd class meant a berth in a six bunk couchette and 1st class meant a berth in a four bunk, which was a six bunk with the middle bunk folded up to give everyone more room.

A café bar for food rather than the gourmet restaurant offerings of the Caledonian Sleeper lounge car or the Night Riviera.

Cheap (relatively speaking), cheerful and would allow a journey from Cornwall to Scotland or vice versa in one night, leaving and arriving at sociable hours. Perhaps it could be routed through some larger centres of population such as Reading, Oxford, Birmingham, Stafford, Manchester, Preston, or perhaps Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, for maximum ridership?

Such stock would then not be standing idle all day waiting for a single service and would therefore pay its way. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

It wouldn't work. For all the reasons already stated, people dislike compartments during the day, and in terms of sharing them at night, they hate them even more. Caledonian Sleeper did a lot of research on this when they took on the franchise a few years ago - many solo travellers were put off travelling in standard berths because they'd likely have to share with strangers, and it was clearly losing them business.

The idea of having to share a tiny compartment overnight with as many as five strangers would go down like a lead balloon.
 
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Journeyman said:
It wouldn't work. For all the reasons already stated, people dislike compartments during the day, and in terms of sharing them at night, they hate them even more. Caledonian Sleeper did a lot of research on this when they took on the franchise a few years ago - many solo travellers were put off travelling in standard berths because they'd likely have to share with strangers, and it was clearly losing them business.

The idea of having to share a tiny compartment overnight with as many as five strangers would go down like a lead balloon.
Click to expand...

Seems to work on the continent, and groups of travelling students love them, but I imagine it’s the British thing again.

Would I be right in thinking there have never been couchettes in British railways at all, ever?
 
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Mogz said:
Seems to work on the continent, and groups of travelling students love them, but I imagine it’s the British thing again.

Would I be right in thinking there have never been couchettes in British railways at all, ever?
Click to expand...

No, there haven't. There's been four-berth sleeper compartments, but not anything that converts from day to night use.

There is a significant cultural difference here, regarding this kind of vehicle, and also the issue with the much more limited loading gauge.
 
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Playing devil's advocate, it could be contended that we *do* have compartment stock running currently in the UK in regular timetabled service.

The first class area on a class 170 is very (non-corridor) compartment like and a large-ish group could potentially book the entire 9 seats as a private compartment.
If a 4+4 can be a compartment, why not a 4+2+2+1? :E

So how would we define 'compartment' to include 'true compartments' and exclude 'pseudo-compartments' like this?

I seem to remember travelingl in the Southern region area somewhere a few years back and the (then modern, possibly still in service now) train had a *tiny* first class area at one end, like the class 170, but maybe just 4 seats.

I'm not going to try and argue that the class 185 1st class area is a compartment but once you get to say half that size or less it's very much a definition matter!
 
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duffield said:
Playing devil's advocate, it could be contended that we *do* have compartment stock running currently in the UK in regular timetabled service.

The first class area on a class 170 is very (non-corridor) compartment like and a large-ish group could potentially book the entire 9 seats as a private compartment.
If a 4+4 can be a compartment, why not a 4+2+2+1? :E

So how would we define 'compartment' to include 'true compartments' and exclude 'pseudo-compartments' like this?

I seem to remember travelingl in the Southern region area somewhere a few years back and the (then modern, possibly still in service now) train had a *tiny* first class area at one end, like the class 170, but maybe just 4 seats.

I'm not going to try and argue that the class 185 1st class area is a compartment but once you get to say half that size or less it's very much a definition matter!
Click to expand...

There are plenty of classes that could be said to have compartments on that definition.

The ends of anything with 1/3 and 2/3 doors for a start!

The new Class 387 GWR trains also have a section in the middle saloon of one of the coaches, adjacent to the doors, that is just one set of two 2+2 tables then a frosted divider with door separating it from the rest of the saloon (presumably as a result of an early stage dropping of 1st class from these trains?)

There are also similar areas to be found in random parts of Class 444 and Class 350 Desiro trains.

The First Class end compartment of GWR Turbos (where they still exist) have prominent dividers between the four bays of four too.

I think even the XC HSTs might have a random bay of four on board that has nothing but a wall in front and behind it, come to think of it...

EDIT

XC HST - Coach C






GWR Class 387 (first coach)





TPE Class 350 (both end coaches)
 
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All 2+2 seated Class 350s have a very nice "compartment" at the cab end, containing 8 seats with very generous spacing, 4 at a table and 4 airline seats. It is very much my preferred place to sit on these units, and I'd far rather that than a SNCF 8-a-side as some here seem to advocate.
 
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Mogz said:
Seems to work on the continent, and groups of travelling students love them, but I imagine it’s the British thing again.

Would I be right in thinking there have never been couchettes in British railways at all, ever?
Click to expand...
British Students are probably a different market. Relatively more affluent than students on the continent so ultra-budget services aren't likely to be in as much demand. Students can afford a better level of service. Culturally too the idea of sharing a confined space with strangers isn't the most popular with students either (again, esp not women), I'd get strange looks if I ever suggested staying in a hostel dorm to my friends. The idea of being in a bed without privacy isn't something hugely popular with British people.

The low cost travel market is dominated by Megabus and National Express rather than the railways, on the day bus fares usually cost a small fraction of even an advance rail ticket on these routes. The downside being that the bus takes twice as long (or more) and you're stuck in a really uncomfortable seat. Interestingly Megabus ran sleeper coaches for a couple of years in a couchette style arrangement but the service collapsed through lack of demand. Apparently people preferred seats on overnight coaches than paying a small amount extra for a bed.

In terms of low cost options I've always thought there's a gap in the market for maybe a once or twice a day service on the biggest long distance routes with older seated, non-high speed stock, since it would be faster and probably more comfortable than a coach. So I like the idea of a budget cheap and cheerful service. But (if you hadn't realised by now) I'm not much of a fan of compartments for various reasons, and if couchettes failed on coach services then I'm guessing that section of the market probably wouldn't like them any more on trains?
 
yorksrob

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Journeyman said:
It wouldn't work. For all the reasons already stated, people dislike compartments during the day, and in terms of sharing them at night, they hate them even more. Caledonian Sleeper did a lot of research on this when they took on the franchise a few years ago - many solo travellers were put off travelling in standard berths because they'd likely have to share with strangers, and it was clearly losing them business.

The idea of having to share a tiny compartment overnight with as many as five strangers would go down like a lead balloon.
Click to expand...

I don't think a sleeping compartment where you get undressed and sleep, and an ordinary seated compartment are comparable.
 
Rick1984

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And sharing a closed two berth cabin with a stranger isn't the same as a couchette where you'd sleep dressed
 
Mikey C

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Hardly any British journeys are long enough to need couchette style overnight accommodation anyway

Besides, the economics of low cost European couchette compartments work because you have 6 per compartment. No way would 6 work with our loading gauge, and with 4 per compartment, effectively 2 across during the day time, you'd have to charge a high ticket price to make it pay.
 
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Rick1984 said:
Surely you could have 4 at night and 6 in the day?
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Unless you insisted on doing something silly like non-stop Penzance to Wick, yes. Having enough sleeping car berths for your day passengers is only needed on multi-day journeys that simply don't exist in the UK.

Couchette-style sleeping accomodation (call it a 'Tourist Sleeper' if you don't like 'Couchette') would get 32 passengers in a 23m vehicle, which is a bit of an upgrade over the 26 in an all-Standard Mark 3 sleeper but not much. It's only really worthwhile if a significant number of people will share with three strangers but not with one.
 
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I think I’d rather share with three strangers in a couchette that meant sleeping dressed than in a traditional 2 berth sleeper with one stranger.

If the one stranger turned out to be a nutter who meant you harm, there would be no-one to help.

In a couchette, if one of the strangers turned out to be a nutter, the law of averages suggests that the other two would not be nutters and would be able to provide assistance or even deter said nutter by their presence.
 
Mikey C

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RLBH said:
Unless you insisted on doing something silly like non-stop Penzance to Wick, yes. Having enough sleeping car berths for your day passengers is only needed on multi-day journeys that simply don't exist in the UK.

Couchette-style sleeping accomodation (call it a 'Tourist Sleeper' if you don't like 'Couchette') would get 32 passengers in a 23m vehicle, which is a bit of an upgrade over the 26 in an all-Standard Mark 3 sleeper but not much. It's only really worthwhile if a significant number of people will share with three strangers but not with one.
Click to expand...

Most European couchettes (certainly from my inter rail youth) operate long journeys covering a significant amount of day running as well, e.g. leaving at 6pm and arriving at 10am the following day, that's what makes the ability to convert from 6 berths into day seats for 6 people essential. Those journeys don't exist in the UK. And such passengers need somewhere to put their luggage, one of the spaces being OVER the corridor, which wouldn't work here.

If the UK services effectively only operate at night then what do you do with the carriages during the day, especially as many of them will be at the extremities of the UK network (say Cornwall or the Highlands) where 2 car DMUs operate the local services quite adequately.
 
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