Northern TVMs

Hadders · 5 Mar 2020

i passed through Worksop station and noticed a couple of TVMs on the platform.

Unless I’m missing something how is a passenger supposed to know that these are ticket machines? There is absolutely no indication that they are where you are supposed to purchase tickets from.

I’ve no idea if this is the position at other Northern operated stations but surely a Penalty Fare issued when there is nothing to indicate that a ticket machine is a ticket machine is of dubious validity?

RailUK Forums

sheff1 · 5 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
Unless I’m missing something how is a passenger supposed to know that these are ticket machines? There is absolutely no indication that they are where you are supposed to purchase tickets from.

When these TVMs (which look even less like ticket machines from the rear) started to appear a couple of years ago there was quite a bit of discusssion on another thread. I had (and still have) the same view as you and supported that view with the reaction of genuine, but infrequent, rail users at Conisbrough. Other posters took the view that anyone who could not see that these were obviously ticket machines was a bit dim !

Starmill · 5 Mar 2020

There are something like 600 of these and they all have the same problem

Hadders · 5 Mar 2020

This really is very poor. I really don't see how Penalty Fares and Promise to Pay can be enforced when ticket machines aren't copiously marked.

causton · 5 Mar 2020

I mean, it's obvious it says "Tickets" no???

(Photo shows the tiny word "Tickets" printed on the collection flap)

Chiltern have the same TVMs and put a big sign at the top saying "Buy and collect tickets", as per this photo:

Surely it isn't beyond Northern to put a sign on theirs, or at least make the screensaver display a similar message... maybe it is...

Hadders · 5 Mar 2020

I noticed that TPE use similar TVMs but they make it clear on the screen saver that it is a ticket machine.

This seems to be typical Northern.....

TUC · 6 Mar 2020

Am I missing something? As soon as I saw these on platforms I knew they were TVMs without even thinking about it.

Bantamzen · 6 Mar 2020

TUC said:
Am I missing something? As soon as I saw these on platforms I knew they were TVMs without even thinking about it.

I'm confused too, I'm really not sure what else they would be. Big touch screen, card reader, slot with the word "Tickets" written on them....

SteveM70 · 6 Mar 2020

They could probably do more to make it obvious, and presumably it would be as easy as enlarging the “tap to start” text to be much bigger and changing it to say “buy and collect tickets here”

Hadders · 6 Mar 2020

TUC said:
Am I missing something? As soon as I saw these on platforms I knew they were TVMs without even thinking about it.

Bantamzen said:
I'm confused too, I'm really not sure what else they would be. Big touch screen, card reader, slot with the word "Tickets" written on them....

I suspect you're looking at the wrong picture. It's the Northern variety I'm referring to, not the TPE one. How is an infrequent, non expert supposed to know that this is a ticket machine and not an advertising screen etc.

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Bantamzen · 6 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
I suspect you're looking at the wrong picture. It's the Northern variety I'm referring to, not the TPE one. How is an infrequent, non expert supposed to know that this is a ticket machine and not an advertising screen etc.

Nope, I'm talking about those. Advertisement screens don't have card readers or slots on them saying "Tickets".

Hadders · 6 Mar 2020

The slot saying 'tickets' is at knee height. That isn't satisfactory in my opinion.

I know what it is, you know what it is but we're relative experts in railway ticketing matters. Put yourself in the position of an infrequent traveller, someone not as knowledgable as you or me, someone who might have some mild learning disabilities, an older person perhaps.

If I'm wanting to pay with cash I wouldn't be looking for a card slot.

Killingworth · 6 Mar 2020

Some ticket machines are indeed well hidden, not least when you've gone down a ramp to the platform only to spot it's on the other side, assuming you do recognise it, e.g. Grindleford and similar issues at other Hope Valley line stations with only one TVM.

Battling through the machine's options is a total time wasting pain, even when you're familiar with the machine.

So last night I booked from my warm armchair with ticket to my phone, first train from Dore into Sheffield at 6.50. Apparently it turned up at 7.44 and may not have stopped? By then the next train was close behind, due at Dore at 7.57. It was also late. Any waiting for the return service to Manchester will have seen that very late train return, still very late and not stopping anywhere en route. 56 minutes, a good run.

The TVM visibility issue is the least of our worries with modern railways!! I used a bus. It was iced up inside.

SquireBev · 6 Mar 2020

What else would they be?

Give non-frequent rail users a bit of credit, please.

Hadders · 6 Mar 2020

SquireBev said:
What else would they be?

Give non-frequent rail users a bit of credit, please.

Every other TOC seems to be capable of installing clear signage (or a screen saver) saying 'But or Collect Tickets Here' or words to that effect - see photo of a TransPennine TVM further up the thread. Why does every other TOC do this and can't Northern do similar?

SquireBev · 6 Mar 2020

Because they assume their passengers posses enough intelligence to realise that a big machine with a touchscreen bearing the name and logo of the TOC, a card reader and a PIN pad, standing on a station platform is quite clearly a ticket machine?

Have there yet been any cases where a passenger has been penalised for not having a ticket because they didn't recognise these TVMs as such?

Do benches of unusual design need to carry exhortations to "SIT HERE"? Does every litter bin on a station need to be labelled? Or can we rely on people to recognise every objects for what they are?

Hadders · 6 Mar 2020

SquireBev said:
Because they assume their passengers posses enough intelligence to realise that a big machine with a touchscreen bearing the name and logo of the TOC, a card reader and a PIN pad, standing on a station platform is quite clearly a ticket machine?

Assuming things is a dangerous thing, particularly where the law is concerned. What about passengers who want to pay by cash? I understand they need to obtain a Promise to Pay Voucher but there is no indication that I obtain it at this machine.

SquireBev said:
Have there yet been any cases where a passenger has been penalised for not having a ticket because they didn't recognise these TVMs as such?

I've no idea but Northern seem to have more than their fare share of disputes on this forum.

SquireBev said:
Do benches of unusual design need to carry exhortations to "SIT HERE"? Does every litter bin on a station need to be labelled? Or can we rely on people to recognise every objects for what they are?

There is no requirement to use a bench or litter bin on the platform before boarding a train. There is a legal requirement to hold a ticket or permit before boarding a train and I believe there should be clear signage showing where these can be obtained. I do not believe these Northern TVMs do this.

Djgr · 6 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
I suspect you're looking at the wrong picture. It's the Northern variety I'm referring to, not the TPE one. How is an infrequent, non expert supposed to know that this is a ticket machine and not an advertising screen etc.

Looks like it could be a drinks dispenser to me. As people have said already, has all the hallmarks of Northern (Arriva) in being half baked.

SquireBev · 6 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
there is no indication that I obtain it at this machine.

Where else would you imagine you'd obtain it?

If these machines are the only thing on the platform, then surely it's obvious they're there to sell tickets etc. If they're not, and share the platform with vending machines, photo booths, phone boxes et all, then it should become clear from a ten-second process of elimination that they're none of the above, and must therefore be there to sell tickets etc.

Yes there ought to be signs to tell people they need to buy a ticket before travelling, or a Promise to Pay voucher if they're unable to, and yes, perhaps there should be signage to direct people in the direction of the machines if they're installed in an awkward spot, but I remain unconvinced that anyone could mistake these machines for anything else.

Djgr said:
Looks like it could be a drinks dispenser to me.

Of course. Who doesn't love a nice cold can of Northern on a summer's day?

Wallsendmag · 6 Mar 2020

Looks like a RTMS TVM to me .

SteveM70 · 6 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
Every other TOC seems to be capable of installing clear signage (or a screen saver) saying 'Buy or Collect Tickets Here' or words to that effect

Hadders said:
Assuming things is a dangerous thing

Yes, but in this case it’s reasonable to assume that the one TOC that plough a lone furrow on this one is making a daft and unnecessary mistake

py_megapixel · 6 Mar 2020

Not just the screensaver; the entire system is poorly designed. I tried to collect some tickets the other day, and it let me put my card in, key in the booking reference, and confirm that I wanted to print them before showing me an error message, which the station staff advised me meant that it had run out of ticket stock.

I'm not a UI designer and I spent about 10 minutes on this design. But I think it would work better than what we have at the moment. Any thoughts?

paddington · 6 Mar 2020

The first few times I saw these TVMs I thought they were some sort of advertising, or phones (https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/06/goodbye-phone-boxes-hello-wifi-kiosk-hands-on-with-bt-inlink/). As I already held tickets I wasn't looking for a place to buy them.

If you aren't paying attention or in a rush and they are new, I can easily see how they might not be recognised as TVMs upon first glance.

sheff1 · 6 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
I know what it is, you know what it is but we're relative experts in railway ticketing matters. Put yourself in the position of an infrequent traveller, someone not as knowledgable as you or me, someone who might have some mild learning disabilities, an older person perhaps.

As expected, this has become a re-run of the previous thread. Unfortuntely, some people are incapable of considering things through someone else's eyes.

Bevan Price · 6 Mar 2020

It would also help if at all station entrances (for stations with TVMs) there was clear signing stating that ticket machines were present, and clearly listing their locations (e.g. both platforms, only on one platform, etc.)

Wallsendmag · 6 Mar 2020

py_megapixel said:
Not just the screensaver; the entire system is poorly designed. I tried to collect some tickets the other day, and it let me put my card in, key in the booking reference, and confirm that I wanted to print them before showing me an error message, which the station staff advised me meant that it had run out of ticket stock.

I'm not a UI designer and I spent about 10 minutes on this design. But I think it would work better than what we have at the moment. Any thoughts?
View attachment 75124

Doesn't tell the customer which tickets can/can't be bought from the machine

Wallsendmag · 6 Mar 2020

Bevan Price said:
It would also help if at all station entrances (for stations with TVMs) there was clear signing stating that ticket machines were present, and clearly listing their locations (e.g. both platforms, only on one platform, etc.)

Experience has shown that passengers don't read notices, however clear you make them.

AlexNL · 6 Mar 2020

That's not surprising as there are so many signs and notices these days.

To me, as someone who is not familiar in the area, the machines posted above don't look like ticket vending machines at all. At first glance I would say they are either information kiosks or drink vending machines, especially from a distance when the pinpad, card reader and ticket pickup slot aren't immediately obvious.

A simple solution would be to redesign the top bit of the splash screen image, or to put a big sign on top of the machine, stating just one word in a big contrasting font: TICKETS. Anyone looking for a place to buy tickets will immediately recognise it. If there are multiple access points or if the ticket machine is located in an unusual place, put up some signage.

Killingworth · 6 Mar 2020

Wallsendmag said:
Experience has shown that passengers don't read notices, however clear you make them.

That was my experience in another life. We all but filled the glass windowed entry door with a poster with a very clear message. Roughly 4 weeks later an almost daily visitor swore he knew nothing about the subject publicised, something he was asking about. Some of us will deny seeing the barn we drive past every day, let alone the barn door!

Killingworth · 7 Mar 2020

Was at my local station today and reminded that when the new ticket machine was originally installed it had its back to arriving passengers with no sign as to what it was. Facing directly into the the low morning sun it failed due to overheating and was moved under cover - out of sight on arrival.

A laminated A4 direction sign was put up and lasted well over 6 months, recently replaced as here. The machine itself is plain enough to see, although its options deter many from using it.

Northern TVMs

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