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UK rolling stock Air conditioning - recycled air or not?

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duffield

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Does any UK rolling stock A/C partially recirculate or recycle air (as I understand happens on at least some planes)?

This may become significant in the coming weeks, particularly for older people or those in poor health if the COVID-19 virus spreads as predicted.
 
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randyrippley

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there is no proof yet that its airborne.
It seems to be aerosol-borne - a slight but significant difference as it may make the a/c irrelevant
 

delt1c

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Lets not start another scare mongering thread. Aircraft recycle air due to altitude. Compare COVID-19 to other types of flu and infection then lets see the risk
 

superkev

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I cant speak for trains but for true air conditioning in buildings rather than what is called comfort cooling usually be cheap ceiling casettes here is a quick summary.
Air supplied to a room is taken from outside or inside depending on both inside and temperatures.
For example to cool the inside:-
Colder outside that in all the air from outside.
Hotter outside than in around 90% recirculated with 10% fresh air.
For heating 90% recirculated with again around 10% fresh air.
This saves expensivly conditiong all the air taken from outside.
Note all supply air is filtered, conditioned to the desired humidity/ temparture.
I suspect trains work roughly the same way although due to lack of space the percentage taken from outside may be fixed and air only heated or cooled with limited or no humidity control.
Hope that helps.
K
 

hooverboy

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I cant speak for trains but for true air conditioning in buildings rather than what is called comfort cooling usually be cheap ceiling casettes here is a quick summary.
Air supplied to a room is taken from outside or inside depending on both inside and temperatures.
For example to cool the inside:-
Colder outside that in all the air from outside.
Hotter outside than in around 90% recirculated with 10% fresh air.
For heating 90% recirculated with again around 10% fresh air.
This saves expensivly conditiong all the air taken from outside.
Note all supply air is filtered, conditioned to the desired humidity/ temparture.
I suspect trains work roughly the same way although due to lack of space the percentage taken from outside may be fixed and air only heated or cooled with limited or no humidity control.
Hope that helps.
K
most aircon systems have hepa/particulate filters.
They will be tested for spores and legionella etc quite frequently,holds true for an office or a class 1000 clean room.
not a reason to be concerned unless they aren't being changed frequently.

to be honest,the rules on public/workplace systems are quite strict.You've definitely got more chance of cacthing something nasty from your car aircon.
 

dgl

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Yes, at work we are treating Covid-19 in a similar way to Norovirus as in a lot of ways it is the same and similar clean up and containment methods can be used, so really not too much to worry about at the moment.
 

hooverboy

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Yes, at work we are treating Covid-19 in a similar way to Norovirus as in a lot of ways it is the same and similar clean up and containment methods can be used, so really not too much to worry about at the moment.
the only downside to this particular virus seems to be the extended incubation period.

not much we can do about that, but the old adage of "coughs and sneezes spread diseases" is still an effective mantra.

cue tissue begging thread!
these guys may actually come in useful!!

(for the apocalypse now conspiracy theorists of course ,this has been conjoured up in a lab to be transmitted by monetary coins and notes,in order to get cash out of the system and force/cajole everybody into an electronic distributed ledger method of exchange..we've already seen peoples bank of china torching their banknotes!)
 
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dgl

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the only downside to this particular virus seems to be the extended incubation period.

not much we can do about that, but the old adage of "coughs and sneezes spread diseases" is still an effective mantra.

Of course that is the main problem, by the time you suspect someone of having the disease it is too late, this is why norovirus is a bit easier to contain and the symptoms are easily recognised.
 

AnkleBoots

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pacenotes

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Don't listen to the daily mail. Did you see they said 'may be'

They are talking out of there arse and are making it up.
 

Busaholic

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I was wondering when somebody might notice the coincidence (?) of Legionnaires' Disease sharing much the same symptoms as Coronavirus, and wondering whether the spreading of it was by much the same means cf cruise ships.
 

edwin_m

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Legionnaires is bacterial not viral, so any commonality can be nothing more than a coincidence, and as far as I know viruses can't survive very long outside a host species. I think with the vast majority of transmissions between the early victims being traced, someone would have spotted any contribution from air conditioning.
 

Bald Rick

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Aircon, usually, cools air that it has brought in from outside. Hence the reason you get the smell of cooked brakes on an HST - you wouldn’t get that if the air was recirculated.
 

dvboy

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I'd rather breathe air that's coming in from outside than air that's been circulating inside the train and inside everyone else who's been on it for hours if not days.
 

AnkleBoots

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In light of concern about using Daily Mail as a source, it can be noted that the findings are by "scientists from the National Centre for Infectious Diseases in Singapore, who found evidence of the virus in the hospital's air exhaust. This "suggests that small, virus-laden droplets may be displaced by airflows and deposited on equipment such as vents", they said."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...tems-could-spread-coronavirus-research-shows/
 

Emyr

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as far as I know viruses can't survive very long outside a host species.

Coronavirus is an enveloped virus, so that may enable it to survive a little longer outside a host, unless its lipid layer is disrupted by alcohol or a surfactant i.e soap.
 

Skie

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Some utter make believe stuff on here.

Yes air is recirculated
Yes some fresh air is brought in from outside (but usually a smaller % as it’s less efficient to have to keep cooling new air). There are regulations on this, usually air flow per person or square ft and it’s brought in by a dedicated intake with its own filters.
Yes aircraft bring in fresh air, some newer ones even bring in quite a bit, but there’s always recirculating happening too.

Trains and building systems will have multiple “cassettes” for each space, these are essentially “cold radiators” that get a flow of coolant (water or a chemical) from another radiator outside - they don’t actually have a big air pipe that goes outside! So the big vent above your head blasting out cold air will only be taking in air from your immediate surroundings anyway: well within the sneeze range of an infected person.

Trains use simple ducting to push this cold air out to various bits of the carriage, but again only so far from their zone. The intake for a cassette will usually just be one vent at the highest point and easy to spot.

They do have filters, and they filter out most stuff. Virus tend to be smaller than filters can handle, but viruses do tend to clump together so a decent HEPA filter will likely catch them.

The most likely way you’ll catch something is contact or someone coughing on/near you. People who travel whilst ill and who don’t practice basic hygiene like coughing/sneezing into a tissue should be shamed by everyone around them- ignoring it just lets them keep spreading.
 

ed1971

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For some time now I have been worried about other passengers on public transport coughing and sneezing without using a tissue or covering their face up. Only 3 weeks ago I was travelling on a bus between Rochdale and Bury and someone sat at the back of me sneezed and the droplets landed on my hand.

I much prefer a train with opening windows, as they can be opened if someone starts coughing and sneezing, to let in some fresh air.

I wanted to get some last Pacer rides, but the Coronavirus has put pay to that. I am not going on any public transport at the moment, as I have health issues that may make matters worse if I caught the virus and I live with my 80 year old mother who would be more at risk.
 
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R G NOW.

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For some time now I have been worried about other passengers on public transport coughing and sneezing without using a tissue or covering their face up. Only 3 weeks ago I was travelling on a bus between Rochdale and Bury and someone sat at the back of me sneezed and the droplets landed on my hand.

I much prefer a train with opening windows, as they can be opened if someone starts coughing and sneezing, to let in some fresh air.

I wanted to get some last Pacer rides, but the Coronavirus has put pay to that. I am not going on any public transport at the moment, as I have health issues that may make matters worse if I caught the virus and I live with my 80 year old mother who would be more at risk.
I have the same thing, but my mothers 81 and I have to get her food as her feet are sore.
 

edwin_m

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I much prefer a train with opening windows, as they can be opened if someone starts coughing and sneezing, to let in some fresh air.
Hopper windows as fitted to the 1980s-vintage units create such a draught that I suspect they would distribute droplets around the coach far more effectively than an air conditioning system.
 

AnkleBoots

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Another quote, from Don Milton of the Uni of Maryland:
An epidemiologist who studies the spread of virus particles said the recirculated air from a cruise ship’s ventilation system, plus the close quarters and communal settings, make passengers and crew vulnerable to infectious diseases.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cruise-ship-dock-oakland-us-death-toll-climbs

I guess a train like Eurostar would be the closest to how a cruise ship works, because it can't take tunnel air.
 

Jozhua

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Lets not start another scare mongering thread. Aircraft recycle air due to altitude. Compare COVID-19 to other types of flu and infection then lets see the risk

Aircraft don't have to recycle air. Remember the jet engines are compressing the stuff by the bucket load for combustion. Bleed air is taken off at the compression stage, before being cooled in the wings and piped into the cabin. The ratio of air coming through the vents is approximately 50/50, with the recycled air being put through high efficiency particulate filters to remove the bacteria and viruses. The cold air at altitude cannot carry much water vapour, which is why the air is so dry. Air is fully replaced approximately 15 times per hour.

Newer aircraft such as the 787 have external compressors outside of the engines, but similar concepts apply.
 

Bletchleyite

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Aircraft don't have to recycle air. Remember the jet engines are compressing the stuff by the bucket load for combustion. Bleed air is taken off at the compression stage, before being cooled in the wings and piped into the cabin.

This being why you get a (rather unpleasant) nose full of paraffin fumes on startup, in case anyone wondered :)
 

Mogster

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Some utter make believe stuff on here.

Yes air is recirculated
Yes some fresh air is brought in from outside (but usually a smaller % as it’s less efficient to have to keep cooling new air). There are regulations on this, usually air flow per person or square ft and it’s brought in by a dedicated intake with its own filters.
Yes aircraft bring in fresh air, some newer ones even bring in quite a bit, but there’s always recirculating happening too.

Trains and building systems will have multiple “cassettes” for each space, these are essentially “cold radiators” that get a flow of coolant (water or a chemical) from another radiator outside - they don’t actually have a big air pipe that goes outside! So the big vent above your head blasting out cold air will only be taking in air from your immediate surroundings anyway: well within the sneeze range of an infected person.

Trains use simple ducting to push this cold air out to various bits of the carriage, but again only so far from their zone. The intake for a cassette will usually just be one vent at the highest point and easy to spot.

They do have filters, and they filter out most stuff. Virus tend to be smaller than filters can handle, but viruses do tend to clump together so a decent HEPA filter will likely catch them.

The most likely way you’ll catch something is contact or someone coughing on/near you. People who travel whilst ill and who don’t practice basic hygiene like coughing/sneezing into a tissue should be shamed by everyone around them- ignoring it just lets them keep spreading.

Yes, this. I’m sure the media seek out the craziest members of the science community for sound bites... This HVAC sucking up virus’s route is an extremely unlikely method of transmission, it’s much more likely you’ll touch a contaminated surface or breathe in droplets exhaled by someone within 2m.
 
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