TfW Class 170's

krus_aragon · 11 Mar 2020

I wonder, could the sluggish performance of the 170s make TfW reconsider whether they want to keep them in the long term (and perhaps keep hold of some 175s instead)?

RailUK Forums

Envoy · 11 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
I wonder, could the sluggish performance of the 170s make TfW reconsider whether they want to keep them in the long term (and perhaps keep hold of some 175s instead)?

Perhaps they should actually try a 170 on The Marches & The Heart of Wales to see how it copes with the gradients? (The 175’s unlike the 158’s could be used on the Heart of Wales).

Anonymous10 · 11 Mar 2020

_toommm_ said:
Or re-gearing for when they eventually move up to the HoW line.

Yep they will be operated on slow rural lines so would be best

PHILIPE · 11 Mar 2020

sd0733 said:
Showing on genius as 5H66 operated by 170207

170207 returned from Tyseley to Canton today

DannyMich2018 · 11 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
I wonder, could the sluggish performance of the 170s make TfW reconsider whether they want to keep them in the long term (and perhaps keep hold of some 175s instead)?

Class 170s were never meant to operate short distance largely stop-start services they running now on, they were designed for longer distance high speed routes where the slower acceleration is not so much a problem.

Anonymous10 · 11 Mar 2020

DannyMich2018 said:
Class 170s were never meant to operate short distance largely stop-start services they running now on, they were designed for longer distance high speed routes where the slower acceleration is not so much a problem.

Exactly why they should be regeared

craigybagel · 11 Mar 2020

I can't help but wonder why if regearing is such a simple cure all for 170s, why has no TOC attempted it yet?

krus_aragon · 11 Mar 2020

DannyMich2018 said:
Class 170s were never meant to operate short distance largely stop-start services they running now on, they were designed for longer distance high speed routes where the slower acceleration is not so much a problem.

The same might be said of the 175s, but they kept better time on the Maesteg route, according to @Mrs. Fortescue . Hence my speculation.

Bikeman78 · 11 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
The same might be said of the 175s, but they kept better time on the Maesteg route, according to @Mrs. Fortescue . Hence my speculation.

The 175s accelerate rapidly at low speed, the 170s do not. You have more chance of keeping time with a Pacer than a 170 on the Maesteg or Ebbw Vale lines.

krus_aragon · 11 Mar 2020

Bikeman78 said:
The 175s accelerate rapidly at low speed, the 170s do not. You have more chance of keeping time with a Pacer than a 170 on the Maesteg or Ebbw Vale lines.

And in the longer term (post-2022), which would be better for West Wales and the Heart of Wales route? I'm suspecting the former.

craigybagel · 11 Mar 2020

I suspect that what may be part of the issue behind 170 Vs 175 is that the number of ex Anglia 170s available (4 x 2 car, 8 x 3 car) matches more closely to what the TfW franchise required then with the existing 175 fleet. If TfW kept the same number of 175s as 170s they're taking and returned the rest to the leasing company, the latter would be left with an awkwardly small subfleet that it might be very difficult to find another customer for. By taking the 170s, they probably got a better deal by taking the entire Anglia fleet, and there's a larger amount of 175s available which may be more attractive to other TOCs.

I could be entirely wrong of course, but it's just a theory.

krus_aragon · 11 Mar 2020

craigybagel said:
I suspect that what may be part of the issue behind 170 Vs 175 is that the number of ex Anglia 170s available (4 x 2 car, 8 x 3 car) matches more closely to what the TfW franchise required then with the existing 175 fleet. If TfW kept the same number of 175s as 170s they're taking and returned the rest to the leasing company, the latter would be left with an awkwardly small subfleet that it might be very difficult to find another customer for. By taking the 170s, they probably got a better deal by taking the entire Anglia fleet, and there's a larger amount of 175s available which may be more attractive to other TOCs.

I could be entirely wrong of course, but it's just a theory.

It's quite plausible, and I felt it made good sense at the awarding of the franchise. But since then, 170s have become very sought after (see EMT and XC scrambling for all available carriages), and there's been no public expressions of interest in the 175s. We had some indications of TfW considering some additional services too, based on the open access applications we briefly saw last year, which might warrant a slightly larger fleet. Perhaps seeing the performance of the 170s in the flesh might give them even more food for thought.

(Or perhaps I've got a soft spot for the 175s, and would be happy if events conspired to mean they stuck around in Wales for longer.)

anamyd · 12 Mar 2020

Has 170271 entered service yet...? And has any progress been made with the state of 170206...?

Mrs. Fortescue · 12 Mar 2020

_toommm_ said:
Or re-gearing for when they eventually move up to the HoW line.

I’m talking about their timing here and now, not for some future line.

Mrs. Fortescue · 12 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
The same might be said of the 175s, but they kept better time on the Maesteg route, according to @Mrs. Fortescue . Hence my speculation.

175s keep to time just fine, even the 150s did when there was the odd 150 on the trip from Holyhead (that the 1723 used to form part of prior to timetable change).

The 170s generally get to the first stop 2-3 mins late, getting to Bridgend 5 mins late - that’s when they leave on time. I leave the train then, but it seems they get even later towards Maesteg.

Chris125 · 12 Mar 2020

craigybagel said:
I can't help but wonder why if regearing is such a simple cure all for 170s, why has no TOC attempted it yet?

A potential solution is already being worked on - a diesel-battery hybrid engine which can be retro-fitted and should presumably improve acceleration at low speeds.

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innov...rterbrook-launch-first-uk-hybrid-rail-project

craigybagel · 12 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
It's quite plausible, and I felt it made good sense at the awarding of the franchise. But since then, 170s have become very sought after (see EMT and XC scrambling for all available carriages), and there's been no public expressions of interest in the 175s. We had some indications of TfW considering some additional services too, based on the open access applications we briefly saw last year, which might warrant a slightly larger fleet. Perhaps seeing the performance of the 170s in the flesh might give them even more food for thought.

(Or perhaps I've got a soft spot for the 175s, and would be happy if events conspired to mean they stuck around in Wales for longer.)

Very fair points, and I don't think anyone at TfW would be surprised or disappointed if the decision was made to keep 175s rather then 170s. As I've pointed out before, TfW have been a lot better at being flexible and trying to find alternatives then their predecessors ever were.

Mrs. Fortescue said:
175s keep to time just fine, even the 150s did when there was the odd 150 on the trip from Holyhead (that the 1723 used to form part of prior to timetable change).

The 170s generally get to the first stop 2-3 mins late, getting to Bridgend 5 mins late - that’s when they leave on time. I leave the train then, but it seems they get even later towards Maesteg.

I'm not surprised by the 150s - up to about 60 they'll out accelerate a 175, and that's even before you take into account the reduced dwell times with the different door layout.

Chris125 said:
A potential solution is already being worked on - a diesel-battery hybrid engine which can be retro-fitted and should presumably improve acceleration at low speeds.

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innov...rterbrook-launch-first-uk-hybrid-rail-project

A great idea on paper, but given Porterbrooks past record on converting trains (see the 769 thread) it's hard not to remain skeptical. It's also worth pointing out that the Wales & Borders franchise already has experience with a unit with an alternative transmission, 158834 and it's 4 speed DIVA. A unit noteworthy for the fact that 4 years on its still the only one in the entire fleet that has had the mod, which is hardly a vote of confidence....

Anonymous10 · 12 Mar 2020

Mrs. Fortescue said:
I’m talking about their timing here and now, not for some future line.

Yes but it's also right to be concerned as they were acquired to work those future lines from 2022 till end of franchise and possibly beyond

craigybagel · 13 Mar 2020

anamyd said:
Has 170271 entered service yet...? And has any progress been made with the state of 170206...?

271 was in service for a few hours this evening. 206 is buried deep inside the shed at Canton and dorsn't look like it will be out any time soon.

FLIRTfan18 · 13 Mar 2020

It strikes me that the 170s have been brought in for the sake of being able to claim that the whole fleet is being replaced - which would have been a significant factor in winning the franchise. So perhaps what we're seeing is the 175s leaving not because they're any worse than the 170s (I would actually suggest they are better in every way excluding the door positioning), but because they were there at the start of the franchise and promises must be kept (even if they don't actually yield any improvement whatsoever, but that's the franchising system for you).

PHILIPE · 13 Mar 2020

FLIRTfan18 said:
It strikes me that the 170s have been brought in for the sake of being able to claim that the whole fleet is being replaced - which would have been a significant factor in winning the franchise. So perhaps what we're seeing is the 175s leaving not because they're any worse than the 170s (I would actually suggest they are better in every way excluding the door positioning), but because they were there at the start of the franchise and promises must be kept (even if they don't actually yield any improvement whatsoever, but that's the franchising system for you).

The 170s were brought in to replace the Pacers (via Cascades and deployment) and any stock that was available had to be transferred to TFW

krus_aragon · 13 Mar 2020

FLIRTfan18 said:
It strikes me that the 170s have been brought in for the sake of being able to claim that the whole fleet is being replaced - which would have been a significant factor in winning the franchise.

The 170s would still have been needed to cover the gap between (eventual) Pacer withdrawal and the arrival of the new-build stock in 2022.

Once those arrive, it's just a case of choosing whether to keep the 170s or 175s: that's where the soundbite of "total fleet withdrawal" can come into play.

FLIRTfan18 · 13 Mar 2020

krus_aragon said:
The 170s would still have been needed to cover the gap between (eventual) Pacer withdrawal and the arrival of the new-build stock in 2022.

Once those arrive, it's just a case of choosing whether to keep the 170s or 175s: that's where the soundbite of "total fleet withdrawal" can come into play.

Yes that is what I was referring to as opposed to them replacing the Pacers. My interpretation is that the (perhaps arguably) better units are the 175s but the 170s will be favoured because of the whole "total fleet withdrawal" pledge.

PHILIPE · 13 Mar 2020

FLIRTfan18 said:
Yes that is what I was referring to as opposed to them replacing the Pacers. My interpretation is that the (perhaps arguably) better units are the 175s but the 170s will be favoured because of the whole "total fleet withdrawal" pledge.

There is work planned for the 170s once new trains are in service and the 175 work will by and large be covered by the new CAFs and rendering them redundant. Mind you, things can change.

krus_aragon · 13 Mar 2020

PHILIPE said:
Mind you, things can change.

Indeed. (See #901)

Mrs. Fortescue · 20 Mar 2020

Interestingly - the 1723 service was run by a 143 last night and it got to Bridgend quicker than the 170 did the day before.

Hell of a lot bumpier, mind!

BBob123 · 20 Mar 2020

Only half the fleet of 170s seems to be being used at the moment. I spotted about five passing Canton the other day. :?:

Anonymous10 · 20 Mar 2020

BBob123 said:
Only half the fleet of 170s seems to be being used at the moment. I spotted about five passing Canton the other day.

The virus has reduced passenger numbers maybe using cheaper runners or something??

PHILIPE · 20 Mar 2020

BBob123 said:
Only half the fleet of 170s seems to be being used at the moment. I spotted about five passing Canton the other day.

They are not reliable

Murray J · 21 Mar 2020

They don't seem to be very fast on stopping services either. If they're cleared for the route, refurbished 158s would be better temporarily.

TfW Class 170's

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