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Inter-London journeys on HS1/Stratford (e.g. Mill Hill B'Way to West Ham) - overcharged on Oyster?

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All Line Rover

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One of the fastest and most reliable ways of making an inter-London journey such as Mill Hill Broadway to West Ham is to travel via Stratford International, using HS1 to/from St Pancras International. I base journey time and reliability on a combination of (1) punctuality and (2) factors such as physically being able to board trains, versus travelling on e.g. the Jubilee line.

An example itinerary is:

Mill Hill Broadway 16:14 to St Pancras International 16:32 (Thameslink)
St Pancras International 16:37 to Stratford International 16:44 (HS1)
Stratford International 16:51 to West Ham 16:57 (DLR)
TOTAL JOURNEY TIME: 0h 43m

If you attempt to make this journey on Oyster or contactless, regardless of whether you benefit from a railcard discount (owing to the journey being made during TFL's afternoon peak), you will be charged £3.90 for Thameslink, £5.90 for HS1 and £1.70 for the DLR - a total of £11.50. If this was the return of a journey made during the morning peak, the total price would be £22.20 (not quite double, owing to TfL price caps).

A paper Anytime Day Single ticket from Mill Hill Broadway to West Ham, routed "+Any Permitted", costs £8.10, or £5.35 with a railcard. A return ticket costs £13.20, or £8.70 with a railcard (most types of railcard, during most months of the year).

If I am correct in understanding that the Anytime Day Single/Return ticket is valid on HS1 via Stratford International, this means that a typical railcard holder making this journey 3 days a week would stand to pay £2106 more a year using Oyster or contactless compared to paper tickets (£13.50 additional charge per day x 3 days a week x 52 weeks a year), paying £1357.20 with paper tickets compared to £3463.20 with Oyster or contactless. A non-railcard holder would still pay £1404 more a year (£9 additional charge per day x 3 days a week x 52 weeks a year).

Why are passengers making journeys of this sort being penalised so heavily when paying using Oyster or contactless?
 
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yorkie

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This is because the DfT want to milk the income from as many of the users of HS1 as possible.

Although HS1 is a normal route, like any other, for the purpose of paper tickets, a ride from St Pancras to/from Stratford Intl on HS1 is charged as a standalone premium journey by itself which cannot be combined with any other legs to make a longer journey.

It does mean that it's rarely cheaper to use Oyster for HS1, except under very limited circumstances such as a non Railcard holder making a single journey without any legs either side of HS1.

It's price gouging because they can get away with it, basically. Who is going to stop them?
 
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Ianno87

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yorkie said:
This is because the DfT want to milk the income from as many of the users of HS1 as possible.

Although HS1 is a normal route, like any other, for the purpose of paper tickets, a ride from St Pancras to/from Stratford Intl on HS1 is charged as a standalone premium journey by itself which cannot be combined with any other legs to make a longer journey.

It does mean that it's rarely cheaper to use Oyster for HS1, except under very limited circumstances such as a non Railcard holder making a single journey without any legs either side of HS1.

It's price gouging because they can get away with it, basically. Who is going to stop them?
Click to expand...

There is also a risk, of course, that if standard Oyster fares were charged, then the 395s would be overloaded with passengers just travelling between St Pancras and Stratford without leaving room for the good folk of Kent who are the primary users to service is intended for.
 
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And charging a few pounds extra per throughout journey for use of HS1 instead of forcefully splitting journeys into three separate, overpriced "tickets" would be an issue because...?

The prices for paper tickets that I have quoted are still more expensive than you would expect to pay if using Oyster or contactless, were HS1 treated like a typical tube or rail service.

My complaint is not with a premium for use of HS1. It is with the enormous price increase and forced splitting of fares when using Oyster or contactless as a payment method for inter-London, multi-leg journeys.
 
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I understand the problem with having through fares is capping. The arrangement for Oyster acceptance on HS1 sees all the revenue for the journey going to Southeastern. If there were regular Oyster fares and a passenger had already reached the daily cap they would end up getting any subsequent HS1 trips ‘free’. TfL would still have to pay SE for them regardless. As such it has to exist separately from the rest of the Oyster system and is really only for convenience.

There seem to be considerable passenger numbers from St Pancras to Stratford International. People seem willing to pay the extra where it makes for a faster journey.
 
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yorkie

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superjohn said:
I understand the problem with having through fares is capping. The arrangement for Oyster acceptance on HS1 sees all the revenue for the journey going to Southeastern. If there were regular Oyster fares and a passenger had already reached the daily cap they would end up getting any subsequent HS1 trips ‘free’. TfL would still have to pay SE for them regardless. As such it has to exist separately from the rest of the Oyster system and is really only for convenience.
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How is this different to any other service?
 
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As fare system is getting more and mroe complicated in Greater London Area, Oystercard seems be hard to put a blanket claim to be the cheapest way of travelling...
 
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For the journey in question I think I would settle for a slightly slower journey for £6.00. The TfL journey planner has the same departure time arriving at West Ham at 1702 with one change at West Hampstead.
 
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Similar question, what if a person gets a Watford High Street - London Zone 1-6 Day Travelcard Route AAA LDN 7-9.
Would that be possible to travel to Dartford (Zone 8) via Gravesend on HS1?
 
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hkstudent said:
Similar question, what if a person gets a Watford High Street - London Zone 1-6 Day Travelcard Route AAA LDN 7-9.
Would that be possible to travel to Dartford (Zone 8) via Gravesend on HS1?
Click to expand...

No. Travelcards aren't valid on HS1(*) and certainly not travelling from St Pancras to Dartford via Gravesend which goes well outside the travelcard area.

(*) Not valid in the sense that they can't be used for unlimited travel within the zones. Obviously there are outboundary travelcards valid for a return journey from Kent destinations to the travelcard area via Stratford or St Pancras.
 
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JonathanH said:
No. Travelcards aren't valid on HS1(*) and certainly not travelling from St Pancras to Dartford via Gravesend which goes well outside the travelcard area.

(*) Not valid in the sense that they can't be used for unlimited travel within the zones. Obviously there are outboundary travelcards valid for a return journey from Kent destinations to the travelcard area via Stratford or St Pancras.
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Isn't "Any Permitted" implies permit on HS1 as well?
 
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Many of the journeys now made between St Pancras and Stratford, especially originating somewhere on Thameslink, will switch to Crossrail when it eventually opens. For that, normal Travelcard and Oyster pricing will apply.
 
MikeWh

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hkstudent said:
Isn't "Any Permitted" implies permit on HS1 as well?
Click to expand...
In the context of a through journey involving HS1 then yes, route "Any Permitted" is valid. However, travelcard tickets are specifically not valid on HS1 unless they say "Plus High Speed" on them, so no inboundary travelcards are valid.
JonathanH said:
However, you can't go from Dartford to London via Gravesend.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? You can buy tickets from Dartford to London route "Plus High Speed" which I believe are valid via Gravesend.


Incidentally, if you search for DFD to STP on NRE it will offer tickets both direct (using TL) and via GRV at the same price. Not sure if this is correct.
 
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MikeWh said:
In the context of a through journey involving HS1 then yes, route "Any Permitted" is valid. However, travelcard tickets are specifically not valid on HS1 unless they say "Plus High Speed" on them, so no inboundary travelcards are valid.

Are you sure? You can buy tickets from Dartford to London route "Plus High Speed" which I believe are valid via Gravesend.


Incidentally, if you search for DFD to STP on NRE it will offer tickets both direct (using TL) and via GRV at the same price. Not sure if this is correct.
Click to expand...
Yeah, what about out boundary travelcard from the north?
Does it appear that any origin out of zone 6 is considered out-boundary (even for Zone 7-9)?
 
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hkstudent said:
Yeah, what about out boundary travelcard from the north?
Does it appear that any origin out of zone 6 is considered out-boundary (even for Zone 7-9)?
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Out boundary travelcards from anywhere other than Kent will not have "Plus High Speed" in the route field. Travelcards from stations in zones 7-9 are outboundary, but the route field is filled with "AAA Z7-9" (or similar) so again they aren't valid on HS1.
 
Harpers Tate

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Just for asking.......for a non-"Londoner" visiting, and using a Senior Discounted Oyster (say) - where (if anywhere) is it made public (eg on tfl website, describing Oyster, zones, caps and so on) that the HS1 route from St Pancras to Stratford Int is treated specially and doesn't fall within standard capping?
 
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Harpers Tate said:
Just for asking.......for a non-"Londoner" visiting, and using a Senior Discounted Oyster (say) - where (if anywhere) is it made public (eg on tfl website, describing Oyster, zones, caps and so on) that the HS1 route from St Pancras to Stratford Int is treated specially and doesn't fall within standard capping?
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Here https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets/ways-to-save/ways-to-pay/oyster

Oyster PAYG on Southeastern high speed services
You can use Oyster PAYG for a single fare between St Pancras International and Stratford International on our high speed services.

This should make it quicker and easier during busy periods because it means you no longer need to use ticket machines.

Please note that:
  • Separate high speed PAYG rates apply
  • Travelcards are not accepted on high speed services
  • These fares are not included when calculating daily or weekly caps
  • Please note that caps are based on Travelcard prices and not rail-only fares, therefore the daily cap may be more expensive than a rail-only paper ticket
For full details on Oyster and contactless payment please visit TfL fares and payments.
Click to expand...

On the Single Fare Finder https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder

and on maps where it is made clear that Travelcards aren't valid on Southeastern High Speed https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...and-contactless-comes-to-southeastern-highspe

Oyster on Southeastern High Speed is there for the convenience of not having to buy a paper ticket, not because it should be considered part of the London rail network. Arguably it isn't really even TfL's problem - it isn't a TfL service and they have just facilitated Oyster being available to Southeastern passengers.
 
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Stratford International Station is not in the Zones so a travelcard cannot be used.

The only exception is outboundary travelcards from Kent travelling into or out of London as you can make one return journey to the zone boundary. In this case the zone boundary is reached when you get to St Pancras.
 
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As a regular kent user of HS1 things were much quieter before oyster etc could be used. Makes things more unpleasant for the service's main users to have so many people using it for this short trip. Abandoning the higher fare/supplement and adding it into normal travelcard oyster caps etc would be a disaster for kent travellers. Trains are nearly always full at every time of day as it is. ( well, before coronovirus that is).
 
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kentrailman said:
As a regular kent user of HS1 things were much quieter before oyster etc could be used. Makes things more unpleasant for the service's main users to have so many people using it for this short trip. Abandoning the higher fare/supplement and adding it into normal travelcard oyster caps etc would be a disaster for kent travellers. Trains are nearly always full at every time of day as it is. ( well, before coronovirus that is).
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I think what it did is to utilise the unused capacity between Stratford International and St Pancras International where many Kentish commuters join the service at Stratford...
 
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Much of the increase is due to post Olympic development near to the station rather than the introduction of Oyster and Contactless payment.

And to think many predicted domestic services on HS1 would be a white elephant.....
 
Harpers Tate

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@JonathanH Thanks.
So, from those links:
- if you concentrate your enquiries at TFL (and do not think to visit the SouthEastern site as well - since in this context, there is no reason to do so for any other service in the area) then
- on the zonal map, the route between StP and Stratford Int is shown as being within the zones. I'd call that misleading.
- that map refers to travelcards (which are not clearly referenced anywhere that I can see as being the same as daily caps) as not being valid. It makes no reference to the exclusion of this route from the capping scheme.
- single fares are high, yes, but the principle of a cap is that any single fare, regardless of its nominal amount, will be discounted (to zero if applicable) as one approaches or exceeds the cap and I see no stated exception to that principle for travel within the zonal area - and the map shows HS1 StP and Stratford as being within said area. The single fare finder page is clear that it is for that sole purpose (and not to calculate a cap); it cross-links to the capping page, where a trip from Z1 to Z2 (so, StP to Stratford) is just that, and you have no means to qualify it as regards your chosen route/operator; neither does it state that use of HS1 is excluded
- and, yes while the HS1 route isn't TFL
(a) why would anyone know, or need to know this?
(b) neither is (say) Chiltern between Amersham and Marylebone, which does fall in the capping scheme even though it falls outside the z1-6 TFL core.

I say all of this because the same principles and comments apply to Heathrow Express, and I did try to establish whether there was a capping exception for that route a week or two back, without success, for all the reasons above. There was a time when Heathrow Express stations were clearly indicated as outside the zones on the map, but that appears to have changed at some point, which gives rise to misleading information.
 
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Has All Line Rover had an answer to their question: ie., why does Oyster cost so much more for this journey (about 65% more than cardboard)? The closest so far seems to be 'because Oyster is a more convenient payment method'.
Another example of what a complete mess the overlay of TfL fares on national rail fares in the London area is: some fares higher, some fares lower and only the specialists (viz. the members of the forum, who know the detail of TfL, NR, brfares.com and ltfares.com websites!) able to work which is the best option.....
 
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Gerald Fiennes said:
Has All Line Rover had an answer to their question: ie., why does Oyster cost so much more for this journey (about 65% more than cardboard)? The closest so far seems to be 'because Oyster is a more convenient payment method'.
Click to expand...

The route between St Pancras and Stratford International should not be seen as being part of the 'Oyster network' - ie through fares are not available. It is just a route where Oyster is available for a point to point journey. Consequently, Oyster sees the OP's journey as three distinct journeys.

Southeastern have no interest in people using their long distance trains for short hops between St Pancras and Stratford.

As part of the National Rail network, Southeastern have determined through 'paper' fares for all possible journeys.

Gerald Fiennes said:
Another example of what a complete mess the overlay of TfL fares on national rail fares in the London area is: some fares higher, some fares lower and only the specialists (viz. the members of the forum, who know the detail of TfL, NR, brfares.com and ltfares.com websites!) able to work which is the best option.....
Click to expand...

The TfL fare structure and NR fare structures were never the same before Oyster. When you talk about choosing the 'best option', the time is almost certainly coming when there will only be one. However, there will never be alignment of TfL and NR fares within London. The revenue loss to NR would be too great.
 
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Why can't the system (and this won't affect HS2 fare income from a journey) treat that as one journey on oyster that goes from Mill Hill Broadway to West Ham, with an additional HS2 single (so treat a journey to St Pancras and from Stratford [International, though some people may walk through Westfield, so allow both] as one journey, provided reasonable maximum OSI lengths at both ends of the HS2 journey?
 
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A Challenge said:
Why can't the system (and this won't affect HS2 fare income from a journey) treat that as one journey on oyster that goes from Mill Hill Broadway to West Ham, with an additional HS2 single (so treat a journey to St Pancras and from Stratford [International, though some people may walk through Westfield, so allow both] as one journey, provided reasonable maximum OSI lengths at both ends of the HS2 journey?
Click to expand...

Oyster can't do this because there isn't a fare scale available for 'plus HS1'. HS1 journeys do not sit within the zones - Using Gatwick Express is similar.
 
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A Challenge

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They can do bus - train - bus hoppers, why not a 'hopper' for rail - HS1 - rail where the two rail journeys are one?
 
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A Challenge said:
They can do bus - train - bus hoppers, why not a 'hopper' for rail - HS1 - rail where the two rail journeys are one?
Click to expand...

ISTR than bus hopper relied on programming / functionality that already existed for the tram - remember that the functionality of Oyster is 'on the card'.
 
MikeWh

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Keeping track of bus journeys within an hour where there is no fare tally to keep as well was a relatively simple change to make, yet it still took nearly a year to implement the Mayor's strategy in full. The first iteration did indeed extend on the tram feeder bus logic.

Splitting a rail journey with another rail journey would be either a complete rewrite of the system, or too much processing at touch out, or more likely both.
 
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