Avanti West Coast rebrand

ScottGallagher · 14 Mar 2020

Royston Vasey said:
I agree with you. I always got the sense that Virgin were one Friday afternoon brand meeting away from labelling the toilets "The Sh*tter"

That is probably true but it's obvious Avanti as a brand has all been a bit 'so what' so far which I'm sure wasn't intended, they haven't hit the ground running after Virgin and their decision to remove the seat picker (now coming back only after a massive backlash) has done them no favours along with the change in attitude.
If they wanted to run a plain vanilla service just call it something traditional like LMS and not a fancy name with false promise.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 14 Mar 2020

Royston Vasey said:
I agree with you. I always got the sense that Virgin were one Friday afternoon brand meeting away from labelling the toilets "The Sh*tter"

"Slash.com", maybe

https://mjhibbett.bandcamp.com/track/holdalls-is-the-new-name-for-midland-mainline-lost-property

(A very funny band with quite a few railway references - the one about Birmingham New St is great too, for anyone who remembers the rathole it used to be...)

Bletchleyite · 14 Mar 2020

ScottGallagher said:
That is probably true but it's obvious Avanti as a brand has all been a bit 'so what' so far which I'm sure wasn't intended, they haven't hit the ground running after Virgin and their decision to remove the seat picker (now coming back only after a massive backlash) has done them no favours along with the change in attitude.
If they wanted to run a plain vanilla service just call it something traditional like LMS and not a fancy name with false promise.

Agreed. There's so much they could have done with the Italian-sounding aspect of the brand, but they haven't.

I still offer them "Travel with a bit of Italian flair" - have it if you want!

I do agree, they might as well have just called it InterCity West Coast, as it has a very similar feel to latter-day BR on the WCML - adequate, but with no flair whatsoever. That does seem to be a feature of FirstGroup TOCs, though - I've long thought FGW/GWR have felt pretty much the same as BR did, particularly pre-IET.

ScottGallagher · 14 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Agreed. There's so much they could have done with the Italian-sounding aspect of the brand, but they haven't.

I still offer them "Travel with a bit of Italian flair" - have it if you want!

I do agree, they might as well have just called it InterCity West Coast, as it has a very similar feel to latter-day BR on the WCML - adequate, but with no flair whatsoever. That does seem to be a feature of FirstGroup TOCs, though - I've long thought FGW/GWR have felt pretty much the same as BR did, particularly pre-IET.

It's a tall order to replace a brand like Virgin on a service that has been branded as such for 22 years but that should have been factored in, apart from billboards there's little evidence of engagement. Virgin even spent money on a TV ad telling people they weren't running it anymore with a bigger impact!!

Bletchleyite · 14 Mar 2020

ScottGallagher said:
It's a tall order to replace a brand like Virgin on a service that has been branded as such for 22 years but that should have been factored in, apart from billboards there's little evidence of engagement. Virgin even spent money on a TV ad telling people they weren't running it anymore with a bigger impact!!

I wonder would First Horizon Trains have been this mediocre?

ScottGallagher · 14 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I wonder would First Horizon Trains have been this mediocre?

Tim OToole who did a good a job at TFL was in charge of First then and I remember his enthuisam at winning the franchise so perhaps not and we would have by now had a much different Pendolino interior experience if the plans were to be believed.

gazzaa2 · 14 Mar 2020

The Planner said:
You mean all the things the bidders were aware of and went ahead anyway? Its not as though any of it was a shock to them.

No quick fix though. Same with whoever takes on Northern.

Carlisle · 14 Mar 2020

ScottGallagher said:
It's a tall order to replace a brand like Virgin on a service that has been branded as such for 22 years but that should have been factored in,!

You’ll never recreate the optimism, surprise & anticipation that Virgin were able to exploit when rail franchising started, the whole process has become too stale & predictable & opinions entrenched which isn’t really Avanti’s fault either

Bletchleyite · 14 Mar 2020

Carlisle said:
You’ll never recreate the optimism, surprise & anticipation that Virgin were able to exploit when rail franchising started, the whole process has become too stale & predictable & opinions entrenched which isn’t really Avanti’s fault either

True, but had Virgin Rail Group (or even the Stagecoach version) continued, people would have been happy. It had become a somewhat conservative operation, but people liked it. No other TOC before or since has been liked by its passengers. Avanti could have continued that with some effort (I think it's fair to say LNER have ridden on both the Virgin-style publicity *and* on nationalisation to do even better), but they either chose not to or are just too incompetent.

mmh · 14 Mar 2020

Carlisle said:
You’ll never recreate the optimism, surprise & anticipation that Virgin were able to exploit when rail franchising started, the whole process has become too stale & predictable & opinions entrenched which isn’t really Avanti’s fault either

Hmm. When rail franchising started Virgin fast became the subject of any stand up comedian's easy gags. They had a terrible reputation, which they didn't recover from til the fleet had been replaced and the WCML upgrade was finished. It wasn't all wonderful by any means.

ScottGallagher · 14 Mar 2020

mmh said:
Hmm. When rail franchising started Virgin fast became the subject of any stand up comedian's easy gags. They had a terrible reputation, which they didn't recover from til the fleet had been replaced and the WCML upgrade was finished. It wasn't all wonderful by any means.

You are so right there were dark times, I remember sitting on the floor in the vestibule next to the toilet (mk3)with a dog practically on my lap in a time of disruption sat in the middle of nowhere, the guard coming through was at his wits end all the time Branson was galivanting around in his balloon.

Carlisle · 14 Mar 2020

mmh said:
Hmm. When rail franchising started Virgin fast became the subject of any stand up comedian's easy gags. .

I think all those early franchises went through pretty hard times, except perhaps GNER who were fortunate enough to inherit mostly a modern fleet at the time operating on recently upgraded infrastructure

Bletchleyite · 14 Mar 2020

Carlisle said:
I think all those early franchises went through pretty hard times, except perhaps GNER who were fortunate enough to inherit mostly a modern fleet at the time operating on recently upgraded infrastructure

Avanti are actually in a very similar position to GNER - they inherited a reliable, popular middle-aged fleet and an already upgraded railway, and so didn't need to do much to keep it looking good - but seem to have singularly failed on that so far.

Energy · 14 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Avanti are actually in a very similar position to GNER - they inherited a reliable, popular middle-aged fleet and an already upgraded railway, and so didn't need to do much to keep it looking good - but seem to have singularly failed on that so far.

Definitely, I wasn't expecting a massive change when Avanti took over as it didn't need it, Virgin were already a great service and Avanti I saw as continuing on in Virgin's footsteps with a little launch but mainly business as usual. They didn't have a massive launch but they haven't kept even some of the Virgin energy instead the service has gotten worse and I seems from an outsider perspective that staff moral is lower. Avanti have turned a great service to an average or bad service.

Speed43125 · 14 Mar 2020

Energy said:
Definitely, I wasn't expecting a massive change when Avanti took over as it didn't need it, Virgin were already a great service and Avanti I saw as continuing on in Virgin's footsteps with a little launch but mainly business as usual. They didn't have a massive launch but they haven't kept even some of the Virgin energy instead the service has gotten worse and I seems from an outsider perspective that staff moral is lower. Avanti have turned a great service to an average or bad service.

Is that unexpected though? Virgin is a very staff centric operation. First Group on the other hand? I think just about everyone could have predicted this. We saw a similar thing, (though I'd like to say to a lesser extent) in 2007 when VXC moved to Arriva.
While this was more the uncertainty, than the actual change in management, when the whole faff with unduly awarding First the West Coast in 2012, the staff again seemed to be lower on morale. I think most staff and passengers like Virgin, so this all feels unfortunately forseable.

Trogladyte · 14 Mar 2020

Avanti is soulless.

vlad · 14 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
No other TOC before or since has been liked by its passengers.

That can't be true, surely?

(I was quite fond of EMT, although that was partly due to sympathy....)

Trainfan2019 · 14 Mar 2020

As the places I needed to travel and places I currently travel between weren't served by Virgin trains, I used to look forward to an occasional journey on Virgin. For example, when northern were striking every Saturday and I had to get from Stoke to Manchester on odd occasions.

Having seen the changes from Virgin (classic brand and logo) to Avanti (classicly bland and no go logo) I'm really unimpressed. It's still hard to spot Avanti platform staff in the invisible uniform, station signs that are hard to see and a train livery that is just...bland.

XC90 · 15 Mar 2020

Avanti need a more striking, simple livery.

Energy · 15 Mar 2020

XC90 said:
Avanti need a more striking, simple livery.

I think its a fine livery, but the attitude really brings Avanti down and the lack of care, notice the seat mascaras in first class or the lack of.

Whistler40145 · 15 Mar 2020

dosxuk said:
Signage people probably weren't allowed on the platform until their train was ready for boarding.

Presumably because Blackpool North is a Northern operated station so lack of signage

Bungle965 · 16 Mar 2020

Energy said:
notice the seat mascaras in first class or the lack of.

This should be solved by now, I don't think I've been on one recently where there wasn't any placed.
Sam

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Mar 2020

Grumpy Git said:
I hope when they replace the Pendolinos they open then up a bit from a window point of view?
They are horribly claustrophobic.

That will be when HS2 opens (although 390s will probably still be running on the old line).
Only new seats to look forward to till then.
Voyagers will go to AT300s in 3 years or so.

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Agreed. There's so much they could have done with the Italian-sounding aspect of the brand, but they haven't.
I still offer them "Travel with a bit of Italian flair" - have it if you want!
I do agree, they might as well have just called it InterCity West Coast, as it has a very similar feel to latter-day BR on the WCML - adequate, but with no flair whatsoever. That does seem to be a feature of FirstGroup TOCs, though - I've long thought FGW/GWR have felt pretty much the same as BR did, particularly pre-IET.

Behind the scenes, First Rail (not to mention the whole of franchising) is in the planning blight of the Williams review and the downturn in confidence in commercial operation.
The unions (well, RMT and TSSA at least) seem to think they can bully all the remaining private TOCs over the Northern cliff, which must affect staff morale.
First Group also has major financial issues and must have come close to abandoning ICWC even after they were awarded the contract.
I can quite see why they are not throwing big money at Avanti at the moment, and I dare say Trenitalia is distracted by events at home.
Avanti just feels like it's operating in a vacuum at the moment.

Rooney123 · 10 Apr 2020

dosxuk said:
Signage people probably weren't allowed on the platform until their train was ready for boarding.

Haha

Pete_uk · 10 Apr 2020

Are all the trains being repainted/vinaled again from the flowing silk white?

Energy · 10 Apr 2020

Pete_uk said:
Are all the trains being repainted/vinaled again from the flowing silk white?

Vinyled into Avanti livery, although probably not now with Covid 19, it isn't exactly essential.

Ladder23 · 10 Apr 2020

I quickly read the voyagers will be replaced, without searching to much as I am tight for time this eve what will they be replaced with, why, and when!?

I really like seeing these up an down the route.

59CosG95 · 11 Apr 2020

Ladder23 said:
I quickly read the voyagers will be replaced, without searching to much as I am tight for time this eve what will they be replaced with, why, and when!?

I really like seeing these up an down the route.

They'll be replaced in 2022 by Hitachi AT300 units (Class TBA); 13 5-car bi-modes & 10 7-car straight electrics.
Bi-modes will work to Chester, Shrewsbury, and Holyhead, with portions splitting off the Holyhead train en route to serve Llandudno Town & Gobowen (presumably every other hour); meanwhile the straight electrics will work to Liverpool Lime Street, Birmingham New Street & Blackpool North.
This then leaves the WCML north of Preston (Fylde Jct) a 390-exclusive zone.

Voyager lad · 11 Apr 2020

59CosG95 said:
This then leaves the WCML north of Preston (Fylde Jct) a 390-exclusive zone.

As well as north of Crewe/ Stafford towards Manchester, and between Wolverhampton and Stafford

Avanti West Coast rebrand

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