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Britain’s Bus Crisis: BBC One Monday 16th March

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overthewater

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On monday Panorama's Richard Bilton travels coast to coast across the north of England to see the reality of Britain’s battered bus network. From rising fares, congestion and abandoned services to hi-tech, green buses and overcrowding, Panorama finds out what people want to see changed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ggpr

Will the programme give us anything new?
 
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GusB

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Wouldn't it be better to actually watch the programme and then pass judgement?
 

Strathclyder

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Wouldn't it be better to actually watch the programme and then pass judgement?

Why don't we wait and find out?
Beat me to it.

Instead of just presuming that it'll rake the industry over the coals with reckless abandon while offering nothing in the way of solutions, it'd be best to wait 'til it actually airs, then one can form their opinion, pass judgement on it, decide if it was a coal-raking exercise or whatever.
 
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Eyersey468

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Part of the problem is a lot of small villages can't sustain a commercial bus service unless its on a main corridor.
 

tbtc

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Analysis of bus route data for the BBC's Panorama showed 550,000 properties, equivalent to about 1.3 million people, are at least 2km (1.2 miles) from a bus stop with a service calling on average four times a day

This is an interesting metric (and there are two houses in London that are over 1.2mi from a bus stop with four services a day?) - though I'm sure that there have always been thousands of such houses (even if nowhere near 550,000).

Good that attention is being paid to buses though - for all of the political obsession with renationalising trains, you could achieve a heck of a lot more by focussing money on buses (regulations, new vehicles, guaranteed long term subsidies etc) - but those in power are seldom interested in the humble bus (even though there are more bus journeys than train journeys).

For the price of one mile of new railway (twenty million quid?), you could transform local bus services in that area (but bus passengers get a fraction of the national attention paid to train passengers - most of us bus passengers would be *delighted* at fares going up by *only* RPI+1%!).
 

Dai Corner

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The true problem is a system which requires a bus service to be commercially viable to exist.

It doesn't. Many bus services are operated on behalf of local authorities. Though some authorities can't afford or decide not to pay for as many as they used to.
 

edwin_m

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It doesn't. Many bus services are operated on behalf of local authorities. Though some authorities can't afford or decide not to pay for as many as they used to.
Central grants to local authorities have fallen drastically while the bill for the services they are legally obliged to provide (particularly social care) has gone up. Along with restrictions on council tax rises, they have no real alternative to cutting items such as buses where they have discretion to do so.
 

Typhoon

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On monday Panorama's Richard Bilton travels coast to coast across the north of England to see the reality of Britain’s battered bus network. From rising fares, congestion and abandoned services to hi-tech, green buses and overcrowding, Panorama finds out what people want to see changed.

Will the programme give us anything new?
If 'us' means contributors to this forum then probably not. The hope must be that casual bus users and those who might become bus users through necessity (such as infirmity) might drag themselves away from some reality programme about plastic people or the latest US crime drama (series 31) and watch.

Maybe now is not the best time to suggest it but possibly the best thing the BBC could do in addition is to follow up the programme on the Northern Dalesman (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07r2s1r) with one from another part of the country, same format. Apparently nearly a million tuned in, presenting a positive view of bus travel. Two hours telly and it must be fairly cheap to make. No overkill, maybe one new episode a year. (I know it is not your typical bus route but if say half of the 'nearly a million' who never use the bus took just one or two leisure trips a year on a bus when on a staycation it would improve companies' finances - they might even realise that the bus isn't a bad way to travel and do so more regularly).
 

Tetchytyke

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This is an interesting metric (and there are two houses in London that are over 1.2mi from a bus stop with four services a day?) - though I'm sure that there have always been thousands of such houses (even if nowhere near 550,000).

It's a reasonably fair metric though, one that TfL use, and any lower a frequency and the service is not usable. And yes, there are a few houses just a bit further than that (IIRC they're in the far eastern corner of London, in that weird bit of Havering that stretches across the M25 to North Ockendon.)

It doesn't. Many bus services are operated on behalf of local authorities. Though some authorities can't afford or decide not to pay for as many as they used to.

Whilst true, as you say the issue is (as you say) authorities can no longer afford to support bus services. Councils must merely "consider" funding socially necessary routes, so as their budgets get squeezed, these routes go. It'll start with the least-used services and gradually more and more go.

Even in T&W, where Nexus still fund plenty, it's noticeable that the estate minibuses have largely gone and evening and Sunday services are far more sparse. In West Yorkshire it's even worse; the big suburb I grew up in in Shipley, which has expanded with thousands of new homes, now only gets 1 bus every 2 hours on weekends and Sundays.
 

Eyersey468

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The true problem is a system which requires a bus service to be commercially viable to exist.
A lot of small villages are served by services that are council subsidised as there are not enough people using them to make them commercially viable. If the subsidy goes the service is cancelled
 

overthewater

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51815726

more than a million people in Great Britain now live at least a mile from a bus stop with a regular service, BBC research suggests.

The Campaign for Better Transport (CBT) said cuts to services had left some people "trapped in their homes".

Bus pass use by older and disabled people in England has fallen by almost a fifth in a decade.

The government has promised £5bn over five years for buses and cycling.

However, Department for Transport (DfT) figures show local and central government support for buses has fallen by £800m a year over 10 years.

Analysis of bus route data for the BBC's Panorama showed 550,000 properties, equivalent to about 1.3 million people, are at least 2km (1.2 miles) from a bus stop with a service calling on average four times a day.

'Your heart sinks when you need to get to the doctor's'
Marion Crawford, from Lower Denby, West Yorkshire, said her local bus stopped about seven years ago, leaving her reliant on charity-run services.

"I'm not benefitting from my bus pass at all," she said.

"I don't know what I'd do without the community bus. I'd have no way to go grocery shopping or to the doctors, I'd be reliant on friends."

Image copyrightDENBY DALE CENTRE
Image caption
Marion Crawford
and Betty Sharpe both rely on their community bus scheme
The 92-year-old said: "When you go to the doctor and they say they want to see you again, your heart sinks, you think 'how am I going to get here?'"

Paul Jones, chief officer of the Denby Dale Centre, which provides a charity-funded bus service, said: "Our members tell us some bus routes do not actually reach their villages any more and they feel left alone."

The charity has received grant funding from the government and the National Lottery for its services.

Image caption
Judith Lawrence has not left her village this year because of a lack of buses
Judith Lawrence, 75, said she had not left her village of Helperby, North Yorkshire, at all this year because of a lack of bus services.

No private operators run routes through the village, so the local council provides a minibus to take residents to a nearby town twice a week.

"I've got a bus pass but no bus," Ms Lawrence said.

"It's almost like a discrimination against the people in rural areas with low incomes who can't afford to take a taxi somewhere."

The lack of buses is also affecting people trying to get to work.

Image caption
Marti Blagborough says he has no choice but to use buses, which are not always reliable
Construction worker Marti Blagborough said buses between his home in Farnley and Leeds city centre are often delayed or do not turn up.

He said: "If there's no buses there's no work, because we can't get there.

"You have to trust them, I guess you've got no other choice.

"If I lived locally I'd have the option of maybe bicycle to work and stuff like that but working further away it's the only option."

Fall in bus travel as car ownership hits record
Government pledges £5bn for bus services and cycle routes
Plans for first all-electric bus town
Bus use has declined over the past decade along with a fall of about 10% in the number of miles covered each year, but it varies across Great Britain.

According to annual DfT figures, the areas with the most steady declines in estimated miles travelled by bus include Blackburn with Darwen, which has seen a 42% reduction since 2014; Stoke on Trent (41% reduction); and North Yorkshire (41%).

Martin Kelly, Blackburn with Darwen Council's director of growth and development, said the authority had invested in public transport but "several travel companies in the area have stopped trading or have reduced the services due to falling passenger numbers".

He said other factors included austerity cuts to council funding, changing employment patterns and "lower demand for traditional shopping patterns".

"Our figures do seem to have stabilised, however, and we have recently been granted funding from the DfT which should allow us to increase certain services," he added.

Stoke-on-Trent City Council said commercial operators' fares increase when usage falls, creating "a vicious circle". The council is bidding for funding from the government to improve bus reliability and provide more services.

'Reliant on goodwill'
The government funds free bus passes for pensioners and disabled people in England but the number of journeys made with them has fallen by 18% since 2010.

The DfT said part of this decline was due to the fall in pass holders because the age at which people can receive them has risen in line with changes to the state pension age.

Darren Shirley from the CBT said: "We're seeing people who are trapped in their home, essentially."

He said many people left without a bus service would be "reliant on the goodwill of neighbours" to get around.

On average, pensioners and disabled people in England took 26 fewer bus journeys a year on their passes than they did in 2014-15, DfT data showed.

In Somerset the number of concessionary journeys taken was down by 45%.

A spokesman for Somerset County Council said it had reduced spending on concessionary fares for "a variety of reasons, including reductions in both subsidised and commercial bus services" and the collapse of a bus operator in 2016.

He added that the council continued to "meet and exceed" its statutory duties.

A spokeswoman for the DfT said: "Buses are crucial to communities, providing key links to work, school, shops and family and friends.

"We've pledged £5 billion to overhaul bus and cycling links, which is on top of the significant £220 million investment we've already made to make buses more reliable and convenient.

"We're also publishing a national bus strategy which will help transform local transport services in every region across the country."


_111241729_optimised-stops_addresses_map_200dpi-nc.png
 

overthewater

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A lot of small villages are served by services that are council subsidised as there are not enough people using them to make them commercially viable. If the subsidy goes the service is cancelled

Should we really be providing proper hourly service for routes where there is little demand? North Yorkshire used to spend the money like it was going out of fashion on routes where costs were like £50 per person. West Lothian Council were guilty of this Evening service between Bathgate - west Calder cost £34 per person at night! a taxi would have been cheaper... Remember Cornwall has a lot of summer homes so what is the real figure.

DRT or mini bus service on call are the cheapest and best ways to do serve these passengers.
 

Eyersey468

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Should we really be providing proper hourly service for routes where there is little demand? North Yorkshire used to spend the money like it was going out of fashion on routes where costs were like £50 per person. West Lothian Council were guilty of this Evening service between Bathgate - west Calder cost £34 per person at night! a taxi would have been cheaper... Remember Cornwall has a lot of summer homes so what is the real figure.

DRT or mini bus service on call are the cheapest and best ways to do serve these passengers.
I agree that for some small villages DRT is more suitable than a fixed timetable bus. There was one of the services East Riding Council cut a couple of years ago that was subsidised to the tune of nearly £20 per passenger journey, they were going to cut the service altogether but backtracked a bit and said they would pay for one journey each way serving some of the affected villages twice a week.
 

Eyersey468

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A while ago I had a guy having a right moan that there is only a bus every 2 hours through his village, my answer was if more people used the service the council might consider paying for more buses. I suspect the reason the service was saved at the last review was because a couple of the journeys are feeders for a college and it was probably those journeys that tipped the balance in favour of the service
 

HSTEd

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In what world is four buses a day a useful service?

Anything less than half or even quarter hourly is probably worthless for the majority of people.

And I am extremely skeptical of urban bus services being able to provide a useful service for the majority of people, at least without massive changes.
They are strictly slower than private hire or personal transportation, and in many cases struggle to beat a brisk walk.

The existing model of one person operation with them also performing sales and revenue protection is simply incapable of delivering a reasonably fast transport solution.
 

Busaholic

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This is an interesting metric (and there are two houses in London that are over 1.2mi from a bus stop with four services a day?) - though I'm sure that there have always been thousands of such houses (even if nowhere near 550,000).

Good that attention is being paid to buses though - for all of the political obsession with renationalising trains, you could achieve a heck of a lot more by focussing money on buses (regulations, new vehicles, guaranteed long term subsidies etc) - but those in power are seldom interested in the humble bus (even though there are more bus journeys than train journeys).

For the price of one mile of new railway (twenty million quid?), you could transform local bus services in that area (but bus passengers get a fraction of the national attention paid to train passengers - most of us bus passengers would be *delighted* at fares going up by *only* RPI+1%!).
There are a few places on the edge of London which attract the sort of 'gentlemen' who'd never be seen dead on a bus (although some of their previous acquaintances may have expired this way). The fringes of the boroughs of Bexley and Havering, Bromley and Redbridge come to mind. :lol:
 

overthewater

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WELL that's an interesting fact: Bus travel by pass holders has reduced by 21%, is that because they is less buses? or is it because said people dont need to go anywhere thus in some parts bus services are no longer needed?
 

Stan Drews

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I thought it was a surprisingly balanced view of the current situation. Thankfully there was no real mention of the ownership issue, so much loved by the various pressure groups, but more importantly pointed out the lack of funding and congestion. There was no operator bashing, again concentrating more on the system, and the lack of funding to support it. They even showed the huge discrepancy between funding in London and the rest of England!

However, it didn’t suggest any solutions, ...and there were a few geographic inconsistencies in his coast to coast trip!
 

alex397

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Just watched this Panorama episode. It was better than I thought, but I feel it didn't include everything that it should.

I would have liked to have heard from more experts, and less from random people just ranting about buses. If you want to listen to people rant about buses, just look on operator's Twitter feeds, or a rubbish local newspaper article. It is good to hear from some bus passengers though, and a few made some valid points.

I was glad they interviewed Alex Hornby, and talked about the successful 36 bus service. It was also good the government subsidy was mentioned, as well as the lack of bus lanes. It wasn't completely anti-bus operator, but I think the documentary didn't paint a complete picture (such as mentioning about Manchester wanting to take control of the buses, without questioning how they would do this). But it is tricky to go into detail In just a half hour programme. It was more balanced than I thought it would be.
 

Andyh82

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I expect it to be very anti bus operator..
Your mate made an appearance :lol:


One thing I thought was a bit off was the bloke in Manchester buying a bus ticket,then a tram ticket, then a rail ticket. Could he not have bought a System One ticket?

It was quite interesting how the Todmorden to Burnley reduction got coverage, this has been a recent example of First trimming PVRs, just a handful of buses here and there. As it happens that route got its half hourly bus back. Straightaway they reintroduced limited peak improvements and then more recently there is a half hourly service across the whole peak.
 

deanmachine

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As well as no mention of the Manchester System One Ticket (not sure if you can get just a day, or a week ticket as I'm unfamiliar with the area). The mention of Stillington near Stockton seemed to conveniently neglect to mention the new Tees Flex service which should alleviate much of the problems of relying on a community bus.
 

Andyh82

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The two lads in Leeds buying 5 FirstDays rather than a FirstWeek was odd as well.
 

peterblue

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There are a few inaccuracies in the broadcast such as the Manchester man could have got a system one ticket rather than paying 3 times. Additionally the person from Leeds commuting into Bradford could have got a West Yorkshire weekly ticket instead of 5x daytickets.

This isn't the programme's fault though. It's rather the fault of local authorities and bus companies not promoting themselves enough. Fare options and travel options should be adequately advertised.

Overall, I think the programme was fairly decent. It was a fair assessment of Britain's buses. I'm not expecting a BBC documentary to have encyclopaedic knowledge of the UK's transport network. It highlights some of the flaws in the current system and some of the flaws in the suggested franchising system.
 
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Tetchytyke

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In what world is four buses a day a useful service?

A morning bus for commuters, a late morning bus for shoppers, a mid-afternoon bus for shoppers and school/college students and a teatime bus for commuters.

Perfectly useful for most day to day occasions.

One thing I thought was a bit off was the bloke in Manchester buying a bus ticket,then a tram ticket, then a rail ticket. Could he not have bought a System One ticket?

I didn't see the programme but the answer is "it depends". The all-modes day SystemOne ticket is strictly off-peak only (including it being not valid during the evening peak on trains). The WY DayRover is the same. So if you need to travel in the peak you have to buy separate tickets.
 
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