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Trivia - Highest Power to Weight Ratio

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Deepgreen

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There is at least one GWR HST short-formation ('Castle' class, apparently) which has three trailers as its current set formation. As both power cars are normally used in service, this gives 4500hp for three coaches. Is this the highest ratio of any 'normal' unit in UK service, either now or ever?
 
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James James

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From a quick back of the envelope calculation, it seems not:

2x Class 43 + 3xMk3 carriages:
Weight: 240t
Power: 3400kW (or 2600kW at rail)
-> 14kW/t

Class 755/4 diesel:
Weight: 114t
Power: 1920kW
-> 16kW/t

For fun, Class 745/3 electric:
Weight: 98t
Power: 2600kW
-> 27kW/t

I imagine there might be other more powerful units, 185's might be a contender but I haven't bothered to check.
 

Railperf

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I make that 1770hp at rail per power car so 3540hp total. And 242 tons of empty weight. So 14.6hp/ton. That is good for an HST.
But it lags way behind modern EMUs.
Claas 755/3 has 2600Kw (3487hp) to shift just 138 tons of weight =25.26 hp/ton. 0 to 60mph in under 30 seconds and 100mph from rest in less than 70 seconds. I have not seen a faster accelerating train anywhere in Europe!
 

Deepgreen

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From a quick back of the envelope calculation, it seems not:

2x Class 43 + 3xMk3 carriages:
Weight: 240t
Power: 3400kW (or 2600kW at rail)
-> 14kW/t

Class 755/4 diesel:
Weight: 114t
Power: 1920kW
-> 16kW/t

For fun, Class 745/3 electric:
Weight: 98t
Power: 2600kW
-> 27kW/t

I imagine there might be other more powerful units, 185's might be a contender but I haven't bothered to check.
Interesting - why is the 745/3 "for fun"?
 

Deepgreen

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I make that 1770hp at rail per power car so 3540hp total. And 242 tons of empty weight. So 14.6hp/ton. That is good for an HST.
But it lags way behind modern EMUs.
Claas 755/3 has 2600Kw (3487hp) to shift just 138 tons of weight =25.26 hp/ton. 0 to 60mph in under 30 seconds and 100mph from rest in less than 70 seconds. I have not seen a faster accelerating train anywhere in Europe!
Indeed. What, I wonder, are the environmental credentials of such an over-powered unit? I seem to recall a steam loco designed for use from Liverpool Street on suburban workings which was called the 'Decapod' (0-10-0 wheel arrangement) which did 0-30mph in around 30 seconds in, I think, the 1920s. The GE, it seems, goes in for this sort of thing!
 

Bevan Price

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And also for comparison
Class 68: 3800 h.p. / 86 t.
5 x TP Coaches: 162 t.
3800/(86+162) = 15.3 h.p./t.
 

Railperf

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Indeed. What, I wonder, are the environmental credentials of such an over-powered unit? I seem to recall a steam loco designed for use from Liverpool Street on suburban workings which was called the 'Decapod' (0-10-0 wheel arrangement) which did 0-30mph in around 30 seconds in, I think, the 1920s. The GE, it seems, goes in for this sort of thing!
I imagine that with an alumnium body - fewer bogies modern traction electronics, LED lighting etc..the 755 is as 'green' as you are going to get. A 70 second burst of 2600Kw power gets a 755 from rest to 100mph..compared to the previous traction with 'only' 945kw needing around 5 minutes to achieve the same speed. Needless to say - no nasty diesel emissions being spewed out either in electric mode.
 

Railperf

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And also for comparison
Class 68: 3800 h.p. / 86 t.
5 x TP Coaches: 162 t.
3800/(86+162) = 15.3 h.p./t.

For an identical comparison lets use the power at rail figure of 2400Kw (3218hp) makes that 13h.p/t
 

Railperf

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Interesting how more modern traction electronics can convert more power to the rail.
HST power car 2 250hp gross 1,770hp at the rail equals 78.7% of installed power at the rail.
Class 68 has 2800Kw (3200hp) gross and delivers 2400Kw at the rail - so 85.7% of installed diesel power. Much more efficient!
 

Deepgreen

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I imagine that with an alumnium body - fewer bogies modern traction electronics, LED lighting etc..the 755 is as 'green' as you are going to get. A 70 second burst of 2600Kw power gets a 755 from rest to 100mph..compared to the previous traction with 'only' 945kw needing around 5 minutes to achieve the same speed. Needless to say - no nasty diesel emissions being spewed out either in electric mode.

Yes - I was alluding to the real need, or lack of it, to accelerate that fast. With sustainable/renewal electricity sources, of course, who cares how much it uses, but otherwise...

I was also wondering subsequently where it will all end, but I imagine it's finite owing to the wheel/rail adhesion issue at high acceleration rates.
 

Cowley

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Sometime around 1990 I saw a pair of 31/1s roll into Exeter Central with ‘Annie and Clarabelle’ (the remaining two mk1 BSKs from the Exeter scratch set) on a local working to Honiton.
I worked it out as about 2940hp for a total weight of 290(ish) tons including the locos.
Surely one of the few times that class 31s were considered overpowered for the duty they were performing? :lol:
 

Deepgreen

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Sometime around 1990 I saw a pair of 31/1s roll into Exeter Central with ‘Annie and Clarabelle’ (the remaining two mk1 BSKs from the Exeter scratch set) on a local working to Honiton.
I worked it out as about 2940hp for a total weight of 290(ish) tons including the locos.
Surely one of the few times that class 31s were considered overpowered for the duty they were performing? :lol:
Yes - although I was really thinking of fixed formations/units.
 

Deepgreen

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Yeah I know. It just popped into my mind sorry Deepgreen. ;)
No, it's fine. I've also just recalled an occasion, about three years ago I think, where a singe HST power car was used to carry about 8 or so passengers (in Devon?) - I can't remember the details. There - I've taken myself somewhat off-topic!
 

Railperf

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Sometime around 1990 I saw a pair of 31/1s roll into Exeter Central with ‘Annie and Clarabelle’ (the remaining two mk1 BSKs from the Exeter scratch set) on a local working to Honiton.
I worked it out as about 2940hp for a total weight of 290(ish) tons including the locos.
Surely one of the few times that class 31s were considered overpowered for the duty they were performing? :lol:
what a noise though!!
 

Cowley

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No, it's fine. I've also just recalled an occasion, about three years ago I think, where a singe HST power car was used to carry about 8 or so passengers (in Devon?) - I can't remember the details. There - I've taken myself somewhat off-topic!
Cornwall... That was on the Newquay branch after a derailment. Well remembered though.
 

Ashley Hill

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image.jpeg
Sometime around 1990 I saw a pair of 31/1s roll into Exeter Central with ‘Annie and Clarabelle’ (the remaining two mk1 BSKs from the Exeter scratch set) on a local working to Honiton.
I worked it out as about 2940hp for a total weight of 290(ish) tons including the locos.
Surely one of the few times that class 31s were considered overpowered for the duty they were performing? :lol:
Do you mean these?
 

Richard Scott

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I make that 1770hp at rail per power car so 3540hp total. And 242 tons of empty weight. So 14.6hp/ton. That is good for an HST.
But it lags way behind modern EMUs.
Claas 755/3 has 2600Kw (3487hp) to shift just 138 tons of weight =25.26 hp/ton. 0 to 60mph in under 30 seconds and 100mph from rest in less than 70 seconds. I have not seen a faster accelerating train anywhere in Europe!
Have had a Taurus on load 3 - lets say 8000hp (think it's around 8500hp in reality) and probably total mass of 200 tonnes so 40hp/tonne. This easily hit 60mph in under 30 seconds (was around 25 seconds) - definitely know as train screen had a real time speedo on it. As for diesel have had 3 Eurorunners on load 2 all powering - possibly around 6000hp+ at rail on total mass of about 240 tonnes so at least 25hp/tonne, pretty quick off the mark!
 

gimmea50anyday

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As far as DMU is concerned there has been a step change for power at rail lately with 158/165/170 offering similar power to weight of around 5-7hp per tonne then the new generation high speed DMUs of 180/185/220 offering up to 9hp per ton.
 

D365

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Interesting how more modern traction electronics can convert more power to the rail.
HST power car 2 250hp gross 1,770hp at the rail equals 78.7% of installed power at the rail.
Class 68 has 2800Kw (3200hp) gross and delivers 2400Kw at the rail - so 85.7% of installed diesel power. Much more efficient!

Sounds about right. Modern AC motors and inverter/traction control equipment.
 

hwl

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Interesting how more modern traction electronics can convert more power to the rail.
HST power car 2 250hp gross 1,770hp at the rail equals 78.7% of installed power at the rail.
Class 68 has 2800Kw (3200hp) gross and delivers 2400Kw at the rail - so 85.7% of installed diesel power. Much more efficient!
68s - A bit more complicated than that as a fair chunk of that 400kW apparently lost can be used for ETS if needed. i.e. it is even more efficient than that!
 

notadriver

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As far as DMU is concerned there has been a step change for power at rail lately with 158/165/170 offering similar power to weight of around 5-7hp per tonne then the new generation high speed DMUs of 180/185/220 offering up to 9hp per ton.

It’s a shame things have gone backwards with bi-modes
 

87015

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6840hp Co-Co electric on load 1 in Bulgaria is fairly usual. With the right driver its interesting.
 

Railperf

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It’s a shame things have gone backwards with bi-modes
I know you are referring specifically to the Class 800's and 802's. But not the Anglia Class 755's.

It seems that the 5-car Class 802's deliver from around 9.4 to 8.4hp at the rail - as the traction output ramps down.
The 9-car units being that bit heavier are slightly less 8.8 to 7.7hp/ton at the rail.
Obviously even less if an engine is out.

For comparison a 2+8 HST would deliver 8.6hp/t at the rails.

The Anglia Class 755 4-car bi-modes offer an exceptionally high output at appx 13.4 hp/t to the rail in diesel mode. That explains 0-60mph in 45 seconds in diesel mode!

The 3-car 755's have only half the power and must be delivering appx 7.9 hp/t, and that is reflected in their 0-100mph times in diesel mode - which are similar to a 2+8 HST!

For comparison a Class 222 Meridian unit offers around 11.9 hp/t at the rail (based on traction output downgrading in recent years since their introduction)
 
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James James

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I make that 1770hp at rail per power car so 3540hp total. And 242 tons of empty weight. So 14.6hp/ton. That is good for an HST.
But it lags way behind modern EMUs.
Claas 755/3 has 2600Kw (3487hp) to shift just 138 tons of weight =25.26 hp/ton. 0 to 60mph in under 30 seconds and 100mph from rest in less than 70 seconds. I have not seen a faster accelerating train anywhere in Europe!
I imagine they wanted to keep it consistent with the 755/4's, for maintenance reasons, and perhaps to future-proof for expansion?

That said, lots of continental Flirts are more powerful: a 4-car electric only flirt weights around 120t, and can still have 2600kW of power available - depending on what the purchaser specified (the Swiss SBB and SOB one's are certainly specced at full power - but they do need it either for steep hills or frequent stopping services). That's 21.6 kW/t.

I thought those would be beaten by NSB's flirts, which are admittedly one of the few 200km/h units, at 4500kW for 5-cars. But those weight 206t (they are heavier than usual, probably due to being wider/better insulated/etc.), resulting in 21.8 kW/t, barely more than the SBB/SOB units.
 

superkev

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Northerns 3 car 331s top the 0 to 60 times table in Rail Express magazine so must be a contender in the hp per ton stakes. TPes 397s I believe are 125mph (more power) so may be in there too.
K
 

Deepgreen

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I know you are referring specifically to the Class 800's and 802's. But not the Anglia Class 755's.

It seems that the 5-car Class 802's deliver from around 9.4 to 8.4hp at the rail - as the traction output ramps down.
The 9-car units being that bit heavier are slightly less 8.8 to 7.7hp/ton at the rail.
Obviously even less if an engine is out.

For comparison a 2+8 HST would deliver 8.6hp/t at the rails.

The Anglia Class 755 4-car bi-modes offer an exceptionally high output at appx 13.4 hp/t to the rail in diesel mode. That explains 0-60mph in 45 seconds in diesel mode!

The 3-car 755's have only half the power and must be delivering appx 7.9 hp/t, and that is reflected in their 0-100mph times in diesel mode - which are similar to a 2+8 HST!

For comparison a Class 222 Median unit offers around 11.9 hp/t at the rail (based on traction output downgrading in recent years since their introduction)
I think that's 'Meridian'?
 
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