Not sure why people are getting so antsy about me posing this question. The vast majority of people using a heritage railway are not enthusiasts. I imagine quite a few might be perturbed by seeing the driver leave the controls, even if this is actually safe.
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Dangerous Driving?
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If concerned they should ask a member of staff.
I must admit ,being of an older generation and saw the introduction of the DMU's in question, I have never given it a second thought that the driver walked across to hand over the Token. It is just the way its always been done, but I can understand that someone new to the experience may feel its not safe and perhaps the driver is taking an unsafe short cut. I can only add that as far as I am aware, Heritage railways have to meet all the safety laws the same as everyone else and do take safety seriously.
Asking a question is not a problem. Asking a question and dressing it up as a statement tends to get people’s backs up.
Deepgreen
Established Member
You make a fair point, but the responses have more than explained the background and still seem not to have allayed your fears. It's hard to know what more can be said to put your mind at ease. It's how things have been done on the railway for well over a century with no recorded serious injuries that anyone can quote. The very low speed involved is key.
fireftrm
Member
Ah yes the words on many a gravestone - we've always done it this way and nobody's ever been hurt
Deepgreen
Established Member
Remember, though, that modern signalling uses virtual tokens for single line working. For those situations with physical token exchange, the speed involved (5mph-ish) makes the risk negligible. It's not being performed with no assessment of the risks involved, so - yes, it is a tried and very trusted operational regime.
Oh really. The entire piece of rolling stock is lethal by modern standards.
I am going to draw a line here and state that I consider myself a subject matter expert, you've now crossed into talking rubbish, there is nothing particularly wrong with the mode of operation described with suitable controls, let's move on.
I am all for con signing unsafe methods of working to history (who would be seen calling a loco on to a train with them stood between the buffers now for example) but this particular case looks disconcerting to the casual observer and gives no concern whatsoever once suitable consideration is given to the method of work and mitigations to make it safe.
fireftrm
Member
You have to take my comment in its context, here in that of as reply to deepgreen. There are many practices that haven't hurt anyone - until they do. As for this practice, leaving the driving seat to cross the cab for a token exchange at low speed, I would suggests it fits very neatly into the 'no one has been seriously hurt......yet'. Token exchange on the move is being looked at on some of the more safety conscious railways, already stopped on NR, as part of the examination of risks that leaning out of trains poses. People have leant out of trains for over a hundred years, but this is now seen as highly dangerous and we are having to act. Simply dismissing this post as talking rubbish is very silly, especially as you consider yourself a SME. Perhaps you'd care to divulge that role?
fireftrm
Member
The virtual token is NOT in use on all single lines on NR and physical tokens still exist, but never exchanged on the move
It doesn't fit into 'people haven't been seriously hurt.... yet' because they have. A fireman was dragged from the cab of a steam loco down south not that long ago during a token exchange. On the other hand the number of incidents versus numbers of times the task is performed is vanishingly low and the concern originally raised was that the driver wasn't focussing on operating the train (which they were) rather than that they were be hurt or killed during the token handover operation.
My relevant credentials are over 10 years as a signalman performing this specific activity, a much lesser amount of experience on the other end of the token/staff, and over 5 years experience as a nominated responsible officer for a large heritage railway, one of my duties in that role being taking the rap for the safe operation of the railway and adherence to operating procedures. I also hold a safety critical role on the national rail network.
I accept that the matter should be subject to regular review, as all operational processes should be. I don't accept that the evidence stacks up to brand this particular activity as a clearly unsafe one.
Would have thought being a railway operations manager, 26 years experience as a driver including being a trainer and assessor, an RO, Duty Manager, former Safety Officer, and participating in a few national committees on railway safety might give me the full picture, fireftrm., so what exactly is your experience/job and qualifications for arguing safety in a railway sense?
fireftrm
Member
Please PM me for details should you wish
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In which case I should be able to put a face to your description from HRA meetings, but funnily enough I can't. Neither do I recognise your description of discussions you say are taking place, nothing mentioned at any HRA meetings (or indeed TRA, to whom all DMU matters at HRA are referred) about RAs being undertaken on token exchanges. You don't actually say if you are a railway trainer and assessor or what safety officer forum you are a member of or indeed if you are a qualified DMU driver?
As I said before there are lots of knowledgable people posting on here, and I can work out who most of them are, but you are a mystery. Any more info?
Bit of a latecomer to this topic but as a BR employee in the 80's & 90's I recall this happening regularly. I don't know the exact details (perhaps someone can enlighten me) but don't class 66's have some sort of similar device?
Strangely it happens on the move fairly often for freight trains at a location near me but not passenger trains due to the way the track layout is and the length of the trains.
Must admit, when I went back to the first time in a while to the northern section of the Cumbrian Coast line, I was most annoyed to find they were no longer doing this at Sellafield with the token for the section to/from St Bees, and the unit was wasting time and fuel stopping and starting off again!
Joseph_Locke
Established Member
Doesn't have to be clearly unsafe - the (effective) law of the (railway) land is ALARP, as (with your reputed credentials) you will well know. Does the operation of toekn or staff handover on the move have hazards? Yes it does. Do similar hazards cause harm? Yes they do. Could those hazards be mitigated or eliminated without disproportionate cost? Probably. Therefore it isn't as "safe" an operation as it could be. You yourself cite an instance, so there is a probability to the risk, which when converted to FWI will give a "value" - I'd guess that it will be small, but might pay for every train coming to a stand?
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