If a driver on here had a SPAD/TPWS/ missed AWS or anything on here that would blow out the brakes, would you welcome the guard banging on your cab door and gaining access to check on your welfare? Or would you rather be left alone to speak to the signaller and do any relevant paper work? Even if the intention was to check that it wasn’t a missed DSD because you were slumped over the controls?
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Question for drivers regarding operational incidents
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Absolutely, a considered knock/check is lovely. Most guards I work with would enter quietly, if they found you on the phone they'd either leave or wait for your thumbs up all is okay, I've had it with every time I've put it into emergency when not on an HST where it isn't possible for them to reach us physically.
Makes sense. It can take a while for the guard to be informed by the driver sometimes and if I’d keeled over I’d prefer prompt actions of the guard rather than to leave me, assuming I’ll get hold of you. By that time it could be too late. A simple knock on the door won’t do any harm, or just listening through it.
Eccles1983
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A strange brake application = guard in.
The guard has no idea what's happened, and pussyfooting around the door isn't going to make the situation any clearer.
You are part of a team, much like if I am stopped at a station for longer than normal length of time and I can't see the guard then I go into the train looking for them.
The guard has no idea what's happened, and pussyfooting around the door isn't going to make the situation any clearer.
You are part of a team, much like if I am stopped at a station for longer than normal length of time and I can't see the guard then I go into the train looking for them.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
I'd give them a couple of minutes before contacting the driver. If it's anything reportable then their first call is to the panel. The last thing they want is the guard ringing up demanding immediate answers. An experienced guard would know from the location if it's out of the ordinary or not.
I’m not on about being stuck in the middle of nowhere, I’m on about an emergency brake application being made but for reasons unknown. I agree the signaller is the drivers first point of contact but if you’re right place right time or short formation...?
bengley
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Indeed, there's nothing worse than trying to speak to the Signaller about something which has just happened and the intercom is going off. Makes it very hard to focus on the comms with the Signaller.
Agreed, but the Guard doesn’t necessarily have to call using the cab to cab. Admittedly not always possible, but the Guard knocking on the cab door or listening through it to make sure all is in order could suffice.
bengley
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Yes that would be absolutely fine in all situations
dctraindriver
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Pop in and have a cup of tea. But each to their own.
Dieseldriver
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I've experienced good Guards and bad Guards with this scenario. A good Guard (in my opinion) will try the cab to cab once. Then, walk through the train, knock quietly on the door and then quietly enter, waiting for the Driver to tell them any information.
As for the bad Guards, they have interfered with safety critical conversations between me and Signallers (including one occasion when I was in the middle of an emergency call to the Signaller).
The assistance of a professional Guard is worth its weight in gold, interference isn't (and that goes for any members of staff who happen to be passing on the train that go to assist).
Thankfully, most people have the common sense to do the right thing and it's greatly appreciated.
As for the bad Guards, they have interfered with safety critical conversations between me and Signallers (including one occasion when I was in the middle of an emergency call to the Signaller).
The assistance of a professional Guard is worth its weight in gold, interference isn't (and that goes for any members of staff who happen to be passing on the train that go to assist).
Thankfully, most people have the common sense to do the right thing and it's greatly appreciated.
I handle these incidents in different ways. If the driver contacts me it's the norm at my TOC for the driver to notify the signaller and the guard to give control a heads up so they can start contacting any oncall managers to check for at risk etc.
If the driver doesn't contact me I go forward, knock, let myself in and observe, and hang around for any phone call to be completed to check on my colleague's welfare first and foremost, regardless of whether they're OK and talking or not. I once had a heavy collision with the tree and the driver was making a perfectly competent call to the signaller when I arrived at the front cab having dusted myself down, but required quite a lot of support immediately afterwards.
As the train's guard if it is involved in an incident it is my business as much as the driver's regardless of how it's come to occur but there has to be common sense, decorum and sensitivity in how these things are dealt with. We are a team after all.
More importantly than that if the driver isn't in a good way I might need to undertake their duties with regards to protecting the train and blocking the line and that is something that needs to be settled and laid to bed one way or another immediately.
If the driver doesn't contact me I go forward, knock, let myself in and observe, and hang around for any phone call to be completed to check on my colleague's welfare first and foremost, regardless of whether they're OK and talking or not. I once had a heavy collision with the tree and the driver was making a perfectly competent call to the signaller when I arrived at the front cab having dusted myself down, but required quite a lot of support immediately afterwards.
As the train's guard if it is involved in an incident it is my business as much as the driver's regardless of how it's come to occur but there has to be common sense, decorum and sensitivity in how these things are dealt with. We are a team after all.
More importantly than that if the driver isn't in a good way I might need to undertake their duties with regards to protecting the train and blocking the line and that is something that needs to be settled and laid to bed one way or another immediately.
craigybagel
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When I was a guard the first thing I always did after an emergency brake application, if I was in or near a non driving cab, was always to stick my head out the window. As often as not a hazard light would be illuminated, which would be a giveaway of whereabouts in the train you need to be if a passcom or for egress has been used.
After that, if there's no obvious signs of a reason to stop, it was a gentle knock on the door and check on the well-being. I've done this for everything from simple things like a missed vigilance (on a 150 with the window open they can be hard to here) through signals going back in front of the train all the way up to a fatality. I never had any complaints from drivers - in fact, I got quite the opposite reaction.
Now I'm about to pass out as a qualified driver, and I already know just from my handling hours that I much prefer working with guards who communicate with you, keep you up to date with anything you need to know, and who you can trust to have your back of needs be.
After that, if there's no obvious signs of a reason to stop, it was a gentle knock on the door and check on the well-being. I've done this for everything from simple things like a missed vigilance (on a 150 with the window open they can be hard to here) through signals going back in front of the train all the way up to a fatality. I never had any complaints from drivers - in fact, I got quite the opposite reaction.
Now I'm about to pass out as a qualified driver, and I already know just from my handling hours that I much prefer working with guards who communicate with you, keep you up to date with anything you need to know, and who you can trust to have your back of needs be.
Undiscovered
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We as guards know what a drivers protocol is in an incident, so, while he's following that, we should be ruling out the obvious- passcom, emergency exit, REC. If nothing forthcoming, quick buzz cab to cab and wait. If no reply, and assuming train is not derailed, general pa about checking why we've stopped and then quiet walk to front cab. Knock on and take it as you find it.
Trickier when in train but I generally make to nearest door panel, listen for cab to cab squeal on pa and key on to check for passcom. Wait a bit, buzz, etc.
In return, I've had drivers walk down trains to check on me if I've not released or closed the doors in a reasonable time frame after arriving at a station.
As others have said, we're a team and we're both aware of what the other has to do, and how long it should take. Anything after that, time to start checking. You get to know how people work and whether something is normal or not for a particular driver too. Everyone has their quirks.
Trickier when in train but I generally make to nearest door panel, listen for cab to cab squeal on pa and key on to check for passcom. Wait a bit, buzz, etc.
In return, I've had drivers walk down trains to check on me if I've not released or closed the doors in a reasonable time frame after arriving at a station.
As others have said, we're a team and we're both aware of what the other has to do, and how long it should take. Anything after that, time to start checking. You get to know how people work and whether something is normal or not for a particular driver too. Everyone has their quirks.
theironroad
Established Member
I don't mind if they guard tries a brief attempt at contact via cab to cab, but I've had incidents when it beeps and beeps and beeps . Then stops for about 2 seconds while the guard hangs up and then.....beeps and beeps and beeps and it is really annoying when trying to speak with signaller. I've had to put a signaller on hold before just to sort the cab to cab out.
I'd generally suggest that the guard waits a minute or two if they haven't heard from driver before attempting to contact driver after a stop (whatever the issue) unless they happen to be next to the lead cab then can pop head in.
You sound like the kind of guard I want on my train! Respect, brother/sister!
bunnahabhain
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This happened the other day with me, I tried contacting the driver immediately after we stopped having checked the external hazard lights first, got no answer, tried sending 3-3 and got no response, and so walked up to the front, knocked on the door and let myself in, the driver was busy on the phone to the signaller so I remained with him, did a quick welfare check and ended up walking back with him as I didn't want him to find what we'd hit on his own. Luckily we couldn't find anything so we can only guess it was a big animal.
PupCuff
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You'd certainly like to think that most managers would be somewhat more pragmatic than that. At our place I can't think of an occasion where anyone's been done for bringing the driver a brew, never mind checking on them post-incident.
Good driving cab discipline is vitally important, but there is an element of trust that the well-trained professional traincrews will do what they need to do to keep the job going smoothly in the safest possible manner.
craigybagel
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There's a bit of leeway for many things in the rule book anyway, let's be honest. If you can say you've made a dynamic risk assessment, which would include the fact the train isn't moving or about to start moving, I'm sure you'd be covered.
Incidentally there have been occasions as a guard when I've been instructed by control to ride in the front cab other then the 2 instances mentioned in the rule book (vigilance failure or inspecting the line in reduced visibility). It was the safest and most effective way to run the service. Dynamic risk assessments were carried out and all parties were in agreement.
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bunnahabhain
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No, the rule book, policies and procedures are quite specific that the guard does not enter the driving cab of a train in motion.
That's a poor attitude for a trainer to take. You're the train's guard not a naughty teenager. You do not need the permission of control at any point to enter the front driving cab of a train.
You must not enter or travel in the front cab of a train while it is in motion in normal circumstances. There are numerous legitimate reasons for you as the guard to be in the front cab of the train. Most of those do not require control's authority either.
If the train is at a stand you can enter the front cab with the permission of the driver - you should knock before entering and be prepared to leave quickly if they tell you to do so.
The reason is to discourage the driver from being distracted by casual presences in the cab and also to ensure you are doing your own job correctly, which by definition except for carrying out rulebook requirements you can't be in the front cab of the train on the move.
Equally though you need to be confident in your own authority as the guard otherwise you will be ineffective in an emergency or degraded working situation. Control are not there to micromanage train operations.
theironroad
Established Member
Unfortunately many people are now taught they can't sneeze without control's permission.
It's a dangerous slippery slope really as people become scared to make decisions in emergency situations.
A few years back a swt service, on I think the reading line, was filling with smoke and the guard was talking to control rather than moving/evacuating passengers. It was highlighted in driver safety briefs afterwards.
43096
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Was that the arcing/fire incident on a 458 at Windsor?
The RAIB report is here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5626418540f0b60365000005/R182015_151021_Windsor.pdf
craigybagel
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But in the OPs post, and in all the posts since as far as I can tell, the train is not in motion
I agree with what you have said. The training of treating the cab as a no entry zone unless the driver asks you in (but that is worded in a way to say only if they invite you in for a failure like DSD, DVD, broken window or a line inspection in fog/darkness/unlit tunnels, but no real mention of just checking on them in the way I would have wanted to hear.
Equally the culture of having to call the control centre for everything is also very bad and yes there have been incidental where the guard doesn't perform an action in fear of later being told the WICC should have been called first. It's a bad culture and will have bad consequences in future, it makes people think that the guard cannot use common sense and think on their feet without being put on a support plan. I blame the companies and the way they train these things as well as in some cases handle issues. Equally some like to share stories they heard from others without knowing all of the facts and make it sound more favourable towards the guard, for example saying they were told off for X but what really happened was more severe. Even in training they drilled down how important safety is by showing the paperwork to a real legal case against a guard and without the proper wording this can fuel the culture of getting someone else's authority to act.
Yes it is a dangerous slope, and we were shown the CCTV clip of that incident and heard the guards recorded call to control. The guard may have acted sooner and better if their first thought wasn't calling control for guidance and permissions but rather ensuring the driver made an emergency call while the guard moves passengers.
In the training I received it is worded as if you can never enter the cab. Even when I ask how I can communicate with the driver if the intercom fails, it is speak through their external window, further sounding like in the circumstances described in this post you cannot go in
craigybagel
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Are you allowed to open the cab door and speak through it, without crossing the threshold?
theironroad
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That's the one I was thinking about.
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