Plans to reopen Totton - Fawley/Hythe (again!)

BBC are reporting there are fresh plans to reopen the freight line between Totton and Fawley to passenger traffic.

lots of words in the article but not much said if you get my drift!

https://bbc.in/39SvBwl

Waterside Totton and Hythe railway line plan back on track

• 2 hours ago

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Image captionMuch of the infrastructure on the line between Totton and Hythe remains in place
Plans to reopen a freight railway line near Southampton to passenger trains have taken a step forward.

Hampshire County Council shelved the idea of using the line, between Totton and Hythe, for commuter and tourist services in 2014 due to cost concerns.

The council has submitted a bid to government to fund a feasibility study, backed by New Forest District Council.

Campaigners said there was a "shift in favour" of the project.

The six-mile (10km) Waterside line was last used by passenger trains in 1966 but more recently has been used by the military port and the Fawley oil refinery.

The council previously decided against progressing with a £17m plan to set up a passenger rail service.

Campaigners maintain a scheme could now be justified, given plans for a new 1,500-home development on the site of the former Fawley Power Station.

Image copyrightDISUSEDSTATIONS.ORG
Image captionThe line through Marchwood was last used by passenger trains in 1966
Totton county councillor David Harrison said: "If you think of the social and environmental benefits, it ticks a huge amounts of boxes.

"With climate change up the agenda, it's a more sustainable way of travelling rather than sitting in queues of traffic on the A326."

The New Forest National Park Authority said it "very much supported" the reintroduction of rail passenger services in principle.

New Forest District Council's environment committee voted to support the county council's approach for funding from a recently-announced £500m central government fund.

Rob Humby, county council cabinet member for transport, said: "We will consider the case for the re-introduction of passenger rail services alongside other potential measures, such as enhanced bus services, better walking and cycling provision, road enhancements or, most likely, a combination of some or all of these."

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That would be a good idea and best done relatively soon as infrastructure is still operational so restoration shouldn’t cost anything like the enormous sums quoted for March - Wisbeach

Completely agree that it would be good to reintroduce. Perhaps it could be part of the Romsey rounder, instead of turning right at Redbridge, continue to Totton and down towards Fawley.

I’m led to believe that last time this was suggested that Go South Coast, part of the Go-Ahead group, complained and said it was unfair as it would reduce their traffic.

pompeyfan said:

Completely agree that it would be good to reintroduce. Perhaps it could be part of the Romsey rounder, instead of turning right at Redbridge, continue to Totton and down towards Fawley.

I’m led to believe that last time this was suggested that Go South Coast, part of the Go-Ahead group, complained and said it was unfair as it would reduce their traffic.

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The studies on the subject all say the Romsey rounder needs to continue as it is, because when asked people want to use the direct route to Southampton Central (SOU), rather than the long way round.

AIUI the best way to run it is to keep it independent and into P5 at SOU.

swt_passenger said:

The studies on the subject all say the Romsey rounder needs to continue as it is, because when asked people want to use the direct route to Southampton Central (SOU), rather than the long way round.

AIUI the best way to run it is to keep it independent and into P5 at SOU.

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I suppose a self contained service, similar to the Lymington branch, could work. Obviously we are a long way off anything happening, look at how long this, the Tavistock extension etc have been rumbling in for.

swt_passenger said:

The studies on the subject all say the Romsey rounder needs to continue as it is, because when asked people want to use the direct route to Southampton Central (SOU), rather than the long way round.

AIUI the best way to run it is to keep it independent and into P5 at SOU.

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Agree. P5 would need resignalling as it can't be used for trains in passenger services but imagine that could be pretty simple.

If the romsey rounders continue then 2xtph from Southampton P5 to fawley with first stop Totton then turn left for stations to fawley. If electrification isn't part of the plan then a 158 would probably suffice.

Also, 2tph from P5 to Lymington pier first stop Totton then all stations to Lymington pier (beaulieu rd doesn't need every train) - desiro. A direct service from sou to Lymington would help attract more commuters who work in Southampton and reduce the journey time by removing the change at Brock.

Recently it had been mentioned that the line to east docks maybe reopened to passengers.

A service could run all stations from Fawley to Southampton east docks via Totton, Southampton Central and maybe a new station by St Mary’s stadium.

Alternatively Fawley to Fareham via Southampton Central all stations.

What would be interesting to speculate on which rolling stock would be used. Class 230 or 159 since the line is non electrified. Class 230 could be a good possibility due to the Island of Wright receiving them or would it be more sensible to use class 159 since they are already used on the mainland.

SouthernOne said:

Recently it had been mentioned that the line to east docks maybe reopened to passengers.

A service could run all stations from Fawley to Southampton east docks via Totton, Southampton Central and maybe a new station by St Mary’s stadium.

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Mentioned by whom? To do that, you'd have to build a new chord, since the current line to Southampton East Docks joins the main line heading towards London, not towards Southampton station. Looking on Google maps, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of building it though (apart from, someone would have to pay).

Out of interest, is the current line to East docks used for anything? Google maps shows what I think looks like a Class 444 parked in a siding halfway along the track, so I assume there's some train storage going on there.

DynamicSpirit said:

Mentioned by whom? To do that, you'd have to build a new chord, since the current line to Southampton East Docks joins the main line heading towards London, not towards Southampton station. Looking on Google maps, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of building it though (apart from, someone would have to pay).

Out of interest, is the current line to East docks used for anything? Google maps shows what I think looks like a Class 444 parked in a siding halfway along the track, so I assume there's some train storage going on there.

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there is a headshunt for 3rd rail stock to move around the depot, but Eastern docks is used for the transportation of land rover jaguar cars from the midlands to the docks for export, mainly to the Middle East.

theironroad said:

If the romsey rounders continue then 2xtph from Southampton P5 to fawley with first stop Totton then turn left for stations to fawley. If electrification isn't part of the plan then a 158 would probably suffice.

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Would you really want to run them non-stop to Totton? Milbrook and Redbridge do serve reasonable residential areas, so would you deny them the chance to get a proper metro service, as opposed to the rather infrequent, not very useful, service that those stations currently have?

theironroad said:

Also, 2tph from P5 to Lymington pier first stop Totton then all stations to Lymington pier (beaulieu rd doesn't need every train) - desiro. A direct service from sou to Lymington would help attract more commuters who work in Southampton and reduce the journey time by removing the change at Brock.

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Extending the Lymington service to Southampton does seem an interesting idea. I wonder if it would give another advantage: With the Lymington service extended, perhaps you could speed up the Southampton-Bournemouth trains by having the fast trains skip Brockenhurst, since there would no longer be nearly as much reason for them to call there.

On another note, if the line to Fawley were reopened to passenger service, would it be at risk from rising sea levels? From what I can see, it runs awfully close to the coast just South of Hythe.

The resolution on Google isn't always good enough for our needs. The unit is on the stop blocks of the Arrival / Departure line, next line across is the depot shunt neck. Both run as far as Chapel crossing.
The East Docks branch and Northam depot are separate, and only join just before the connection to / from the Down Slow at Northam Junction.
Traffic to the East Docks when I retired was 1 train from Castle Bromwich (8 WIAs); 1 train from Cowley (11 WIAs), and 2 from Halewood (10 IPAs). Due to the length of the Cowley train (108 slu = 686 metres) Network Rail had to upgrade Chapel crossing and add barriers.
Pat

Also worth mentioning that although the Fawley Branch runs to the site of Fawley station (platform still in situ), the last 1/2 mile or so is within the perimeter of the refinery. They won't be letting the public in any time soon. Even getting in there to work trains could be a faff (and railway access was guaranteed). (I believe that NR had to remind Exxon-Mobile that the track inside the fence wasn't available for the scrapman.)
Certainly at the refinery gate , where the Ground Frame is, high tide is not very far below track level. (OT, early morning, low tide, brilliant spot for spotting waders etc. on the mud flats.)
Pat

Although 3 years old, there is a cab ride from Southampton Central down to the gates of Fawley Esso filmed during its visit to the branch by the Hastings Unit. Most of the track looks in relatively good condition, although there's a few level crossings down there.

SouthernOne said:

Recently it had been mentioned that the line to east docks maybe reopened to passengers

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Someone mentioning something does not make it any closer to a realistic proposal, so best concentrate on what is possible and perfectly feasible. Happened to be there last week and took a couple of pictures, which confirm that vegetation is being kept under control here just outside Hythe.

Carlisle said:

That would be a good idea and best done relatively soon as infrastructure is still operational so restoration shouldn’t cost anything like the enormous sums quoted for March - Wisbeach

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The infrastructure is so far below spec it is more of a hinderance than a help.

If the powers that be want it, the quoted cost will be £17m and the outturn £40m.

If they don't, the quoted cost will be £200m, the scheme will die and and nobody will be able to prove any different.

Thread title needs correcting (to 'Hythe').

The line is still 'live' and maintained, just holds no regular service south of Marchwood military.
in terms of a southern terminus - the current plans shared to councils show it as Hardley Halt, which would be located just prior to the Refinery - IMO would make a good site for a P&R for Fawley Holbury and the Southern Suburbs of Hythe (anything central Hythe should be walking distance to wherever Hythe station ends up)

https://goo.gl/maps/27Ru3zkbMBtoRSLW6

Presentation http://www.hytheanddibden.gov.uk/_U...resentation 22 Jan 2020 - as sent to HDPC.pdf

In conversation with the Marchwood signalmen, the hope is that a major housing development at Dibden will mean improved transport infrastructure - reintroduction of trains over the branch.
Proposals have been rumbling on for years, not supported by NR, who have stated any such scheme is "not economically viable"

I wonder how much financial input would be required to upgrade the infrastructure on the line?

341o2 said:

In conversation with the Marchwood signalmen, the hope is that a major housing development at Dibden will mean improved transport infrastructure - reintroduction of trains over the branch.
Proposals have been rumbling on for years, not supported by NR, who have stated any such scheme is "not economically viable"

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Hants county council have also generally been unsupportive. NR obviously take their lead from that. The original linked info isn’t exactly that positive is it?
“We will consider the case for the re-introduction of passenger rail services alongside other potential measures, such as enhanced bus services, better walking and cycling provision, road enhancements or, most likely, a combination of some or all of these.”
What if yet another DfT sponsored assessment reveals it still isn’t viable?

DynamicSpirit said:

Would you really want to run them non-stop to Totton? Milbrook and Redbridge do serve reasonable residential areas, so would you deny them the chance to get a proper metro service, as opposed to the rather infrequent, not very useful, service that those stations currently have?



Extending the Lymington service to Southampton does seem an interesting idea. I wonder if it would give another advantage: With the Lymington service extended, perhaps you could speed up the Southampton-Bournemouth trains by having the fast trains skip Brockenhurst, since there would no longer be nearly as much reason for them to call there.

On another note, if the line to Fawley were reopened to passenger service, would it be at risk from rising sea levels? From what I can see, it runs awfully close to the coast just South of Hythe.

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I did wonder about Millbrook and Redbridge and certainly if there is extra demand then that would make some sense.

I certainly think brockenhurst gets far more trains than it needs and at detriment to passengers for the Bournemouth, Christchurch, Poole conurbation and stations west . However, I'd also like to see Winchester removed from fast Weymouth services outside of a few in am and pm peaks. The journey from London to Bournemouth/Poole/Weymouth is woefully slow and needs improving to attract more people off the M3

SouthernOne said:

Recently it had been mentioned that the line to east docks maybe reopened to passengers.

A service could run all stations from Fawley to Southampton east docks via Totton, Southampton Central and maybe a new station by St Mary’s stadium.

Alternatively Fawley to Fareham via Southampton Central all stations.

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DynamicSpirit said:

Mentioned by whom? To do that, you'd have to build a new chord, since the current line to Southampton East Docks joins the main line heading towards London, not towards Southampton station. Looking on Google maps, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of building it though (apart from, someone would have to pay).

Out of interest, is the current line to East docks used for anything? Google maps shows what I think looks like a Class 444 parked in a siding halfway along the track, so I assume there's some train storage going on there.

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I can't see a chord being built anytime soon and while a stop for st Mary's could be useful I'm not sure of much more demand down to eastern docks.

theironroad said:

I can't see a chord being built anytime soon and while a stop for st Mary's could be useful I'm not sure of much more demand down to eastern docks.

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I think this east docks thing is more likely to be the hypothetical local light rail or tram? Not well thought out in my opinion, but such things usually get positively covered in local media. I think someone mentioned it in passing in the recent thread about possibilities for four tracking Basingstoke to Southampton...

theironroad said:

I'm not sure of much more demand down to eastern docks.

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Yes, I think Southampton Terminus glory days were over once the aircraft superseded the ocean liner for mainstream travel.

Fawley to Fareham would be diesel on lots of third rail. That's why Salisbury Romsey Eastleigh Soton Fawley works better.

Now Lymington to Pompey makes much more sense. And I second the comment about speeding up services to west of Soton, by skipping Brock, and Winchester, which now has 4 tph to Waterloo.

theironroad said:

I can't see a chord being built anytime soon and while a stop for st Mary's could be useful I'm not sure of much more demand down to eastern docks.

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Personally I don't think I'd see it in terms of specifically the Eastern Docks - more a case of, providing a station on the East side of the Town Centre, to give access to the various businesses, and houses there and perhaps Ocean Village - so I would have thought that if you opened that line, you'd put the station a bit further North than the docks. Essentially taking advantage of that there is an available trackbed in a fairly built-up area, and - if the Fawley branch were re-opened to passengers - an obvious service that could be extended to use it.

The biggest doubt I would have would be whether you could do it without hurting reliability of existing services - since you'd be looking at new flat junctions and conflicting moves both West of Totton and East of Southampton.

Carlisle said:

Yes, I think Southampton Terminus glory days were over once the aircraft superseded the ocean liner for mainstream travel.

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The area around Eastern docks has been developed since, although I'm not sure if there is enough demand to justify the re-building of a chord towards Soton Central.

The prevailing view from the local council is that buses are sufficient. This also goes for the Marchwood/Hythe/Fawley area. A train might be quicker but the bus can better serve Fawley, given that the old station is right in the middle of the refinery.

The first step in proposing to reopen thsis branch is to rebut the conclusions of the Halcrow report, commissioned by the County Council who were quite happy to kill off athe original proposal for which they had no funding or budget. I found several errors in the report but most disturbing was the kind of service envisaged. There seemed to be no attempt to create an offering that was actually attractive to the public. with the notion of 100mph DMUs forced to trundle at no more than 30 mph along half of the line terminating at Hythe. The service was envisaged to run through to Fareham for some reason, increasing the number of trains required, yet the service only needs to run to P5 at Soton Central. The estimated passenger figures were significantly underestimated, as could be seen from traffic comparisons with a similar line with similar populations (Ebbw Vale to Newport/Cardiff) where patronage is per capita double the figures estimated by Halcrow. All this needs to be challenged yet unfortunately the main proponent of the scheme (David Harrison) seems to be more interested in ensuring his name gets into print than in actually doing any hard work. The main problem with the latest proposal is to extend no further than Hythe. The restrictions on travelling through the Refinery Site are always seen as an immediate barrier to any further discussion but this is not so and as far as I know no discussions have even taken place with Exxon. The track runs through the tank farm part of the refinery but is not close to any significant installation. The main Refinery plant is over a mile away, and even a full blooded golf shot would not reach any of the tanks from the line. The Refinery's perimeter fence could easily be modified to create a corridor through to a new Parkway station to the south of the Refinery in the area south of the old bitumen plant and accessed via an improved Copthorne Lane. The new station could be built on redundant refinery land occupied by the old bitumen plant tucked away at the extreme south of the refinery site. THis would bring Fawley, the new village, Holbury Blackfield Langley and Calshot within reach of the new line and to be blunt is the difference between a financial failure and a strategic success with double the patronage. As things stand this is an opportunity crying out for something like SELRAP, not a bunch of posturing councillors whose "action" amounts to little more than soundbites for the local press.

I can't see a short shuttle at 30mph gaining many passengers and also in the peak not having through trains probably won't help custom most people would probably drive to Southampton Airport Parkway.