Why are there no single or two-car EMUs?

mmh · 18 Mar 2020

Bob M said:
If a 2-car third rail unit were available, the Lymington branch would be a good place for it.

As mentioned before, 456s and 466s are two car third rail units, the 456s all operated by SWR, so they are "available."

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D365 · 18 Mar 2020

mmh said:
As mentioned before, 456s and 466s are two car third rail units, the 456s all operated by SWR, so they are "available."

I still don't understand this obsession with bringing a microfleet back to the Lymington Branch.

swt_passenger · 18 Mar 2020

D365 said:
I still don't understand this obsession with bringing a microfleet back to the Lymington Branch.

As normal someone’s looking for a solution to a non existent problem...

hwl · 18 Mar 2020

D365 said:
I still don't understand this obsession with bringing a microfleet back to the Lymington Branch.

Microfleets are a bad idea and best avoided if possible.

Journeyman · 18 Mar 2020

The old Waterloo and City line fleet (class 483), withdrawn from service in 1993, had motor vehicles with cabs at each end that could, at least in theory, operate singly, but I don't think they ever did. The idea was that pairs of motors with three trailers in the middle would operate in the peaks, with single motors at off-peak times, but generally the motors operated in pairs when they weren't running with trailers. Ever since I could remember using it, the W&C just ran five-car trains all day, even when it was deserted in the middle of the day, presumably because the shunting required was deemed to be more hassle than it was worth.

AM9 · 18 Mar 2020

hexagon789 said:
Thank you for clarifying, seems I remembered some bits. Something I often wondered was how able the 309s were at actually reaching 100mph. Certainly a standard 10-car formation doesn't seem all that powerful by modern standards?

The other thing is how much 100mph running there was. From Modern Railways the GEML seems to have still been 90 max in 1962/3.

Just some observations and ponderings

One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8m:00s and 8m:30s, and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 second break in the acceleration.
All things are relative, but for it's day, probably the most interesting short sprint on an electric train in its day.

Journeyman · 18 Mar 2020

AM9 said:
One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8:00 and 8:30, and and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 break in the acceleration.
All things are relative, but for it's day, probably the most interesting short sprint on an electric train in its day.

The two-car 309s had the same number of motors as a 4-car, so had an extremely meaty power-to-weight ratio. I read somewhere that this was specifically intended to boost the acceleration of 10-car trains, as they had a better power-to-weight ratio than 4- or 8-car sets, providing more resilience in the peaks, but I'm not sure how much truth there is in that.

hexagon789 · 18 Mar 2020

AM9 said:
One of the big things about the 309s was that you could stand in the gangway between the units and read the speedometers. In my experience they were nearly always indicating over 95mph running through Ingatestone from a standing start at Shenfield. The run from Shenfield was 15.5km (9.6miles) with a run time of between 8m:00s and 8m:30s, and the average gradient was just over 1:200 falling in the down direction (just over 1:300 in the 5.5km to Ingatestone gates). In that first stretch at just over 1km was the 6.25/25kV changeover point which with a three unit train would add a 20-30 second break in the acceleration.
All things are relative, but for it's day, probably the most interesting short sprint on an electric train in its day.

For the period I suppose it was better than steam traction might manage, and certainly at lower speeds the performance would be much greater. Though even considering that your timings are we might say 'rough' in some respects, that does seem to suggest that 100mph would take some time to attain on level track. Excluding any interruptions to the power supply from neutral sections, possibly in the region of 8 minutes from a stand?

Journeyman said:
The two-car 309s had the same number of motors as a 4-car, so had an extremely meaty power-to-weight ratio. I read somewhere that this was specifically intended to boost the acceleration of 10-car trains, as they had a better power-to-weight ratio than 4- or 8-car sets, providing more resilience in the peaks, but I'm not sure how much truth there is in that.

Funnily enough that's exactly what my impression was as if related above!

AM9 · 18 Mar 2020

hexagon789 said:
... Funnily enough that's exactly what my impression was as if related above!

I think it was a bit of that and a capacity boost as even then there were quite a few Clacton and Colchester commuters which might have overwhelmed an 8-car train. The GEML has always been one of the most intensively worked routes out of London from the GER setting up the 'jazz' service around the turn of the 20th century, - steam hauled suburban services with a four minute dwell at Liverpool St. including a reversal and a loco change! The section to Shenfield was progressively four-tracked between the 1890s and the early 1930s, each time to relieve the congestion caused by ever increasing passenger demand. In my GE travelling days, 1968-1976, the inner suburban (class 306) outer suburban (classes 305/307/308) and mainline (classes 37/47 + LHCS and 309) were all interwoven between main (fast) and electric (slow) tracks with half of the intermediate Southend Victoria trains starting on the fasts in London, a stop in Straford, then slotting in between the slows after Gidea Park and finally slotting in between the faster Southend services at Shenfield. It didn't take much for the whole lines' services to be heavily delayed (often by careless passengers leaving doors open) on the Southends at Harold Wood/Brentwood/Shenfield electric line stops. The Clactons could generally keep to their paths out to Shenfield despite the numerous double and single yellows encountered, but a Norwich class47+11 LHCS would struggle to regain it's momentum after a check. The 17.30 to Yarmouth Vauxhall left LST just 2 minutes before the 17:32 outer suburban Colchester, and the 305s were often checked before their first stop at Chelmsford by the 47s trying to accelerate away from a delayed Southend weaving in front.
Frustrating as a commuter but interesting once the workings of the line was understood. All in all, not unlike the current MML peaks.

43096 · 18 Mar 2020

nlogax said:
Always struck me as the ideal place for a 456..

They are better used providing maximum length 10-car trains as 455+455+456 formations where they are really needed.

rogercov · 18 Mar 2020

The old Waterloo & City stock, which became class 487, ran as a single car in off-peak times in the 1950s and possibly the 1960s. After that I only saw them in 5-car formations. Does anyone know when 1-car operation stopped?
Was this the only single car example in the UK?

Mikey C · 19 Mar 2020

hwl said:
Microfleets are a bad idea and best avoided if possible.

Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years

hwl · 19 Mar 2020

Mikey C said:
Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years

But very expensive to maintain and have a sufficient pool of drivers (training and diagramming issues). Reliability also tends to be far lower as not much engineering effort is applied to them.

Microfleets are surprisingly expensive

swt_passenger · 19 Mar 2020

Mikey C said:
Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years

But does the overall fleet plan actually need that 450 to strengthen services elsewhere? AIUI from previous discussions SWR staff have said the vast majority of services are now running at maximum length in the peaks.

43096 · 19 Mar 2020

Mikey C said:
Slightly off topic, but on the other hand, a couple of dedicated 456 sets for the Lymington branch would release a 450 to strengthen services elsewhere, seeing that they have no further use and will probably go for scrap. After all SWT were happy to keep 421 3-Cig units going on that branch for a few years

See my post above on the best use for 456s. There has been plenty of strengthening of mainline services in recent years following the 707 introduction, such that a 450 can be made available for Lymington.

I just don’t understand this micro-fleet obsession that some enthusiasts have.

Deepgreen · 19 Mar 2020

Islineclear3_1 said:
They did work singly on the Lymington and Sheerness branches, Maidstone West, Dorking to Horsham backwaters and I'm sure, other branches on the former South Western Division; however, they were tagged onto peak hour main-line units to add additional capacity

Never anything powered with a REP unless isolated. The Dorking - Horsham shuttle was 2EPB. Wimbledon to West Croydon, Staines to Weybridge, Staines to Woking, Tattenham Corner to Purley and Lymington were all two car workings.

Deepgreen · 19 Mar 2020

The erstwhile London Transport Acton Town to South Acton shuttle was operated by a single modified G stock car until its withdrawal in 1959. Perhaps the UK's only passenger single car EMU (ESU?).

See:https://flic.kr/p/bZmAMq

Deepgreen · 19 Mar 2020

43096 said:
See my post above on the best use for 456s. There has been plenty of strengthening of mainline services in recent years following the 707 introduction, such that a 450 can be made available for Lymington.

I just don’t understand this micro-fleet obsession that some enthusiasts have.

It's simply because they are enthusiasts - something 'rare', localised or unusual is, by definition, more interesting.

43096 · 19 Mar 2020

Deepgreen said:
It's simply because they are enthusiasts - something 'rare', localised or unusual is, by definition, more interesting.

That is probably one of the best explanations for it I’ve ever seen.

rogercov · 19 Mar 2020

Deepgreen said:
The erstwhile London Transport Acton Town to South Acton shuttle was operated by a single modified G stock car until its withdrawal in 1959. Perhaps the UK's only passenger single car EMU (ESU?).

Yes I'd forgotten about the South Acton shuttle, but it's definitely not the only example, as I pointed out above in my post #71. The Waterloo&City used to run a single car off-peak. I'm guessing the W&C was the only example on BR, unless you know different.

Nicks · 19 Mar 2020

There seems to be an interest in creating and using microfleets with the 230 Vivarail conversions...

D365 · 19 Mar 2020

Nicks said:
There seems to be an interest in creating and using microfleets with the 230 Vivarail conversions...

The Marston Vale has long been a diesel island with specific requirements (read: short platforms). Borderlands is similar, to an extent. And the Island Line is an island is every sense.

61653 HTAFC · 20 Mar 2020

Nicks said:
There seems to be an interest in creating and using microfleets with the 230 Vivarail conversions...

When the Vivarail project was initially announced, one of the stated advantages was that most day-to-day maintenance could be done (at least in theory) with a fitter in a van.

randyrippley · 20 Mar 2020

Grannyjoans said:
A single-car EMU would be fun, imagine how good the acceleration would be

stopping it would be more fun

gingertom · 20 Mar 2020

randyrippley said:
stopping it would be more fun

I fancy the idea of a 2-car Stadler Flirt with both ordinary bogies motored, 2600BHP. Pocket rocket.

James James · 20 Mar 2020

It turns out the PKP have a somewhat modern ESU, the EN81 from 2005. Not the most powerful, still interesting. (Mostly used on long-ago-electrified now not very highly used lines from what I remember.)

Stadler do build 2-car Flirts, but they aren't fully motored (most likely 1 axle powered per motor bogie, I can't find the datasheets).

30907 · 20 Mar 2020

James James said:
It turns out the PKP have a somewhat modern ESU, the EN81 from 2005. Not the most powerful, still interesting.

A rare type indeed, which I'd missed totally.

PeterC · 20 Mar 2020

AM9 said:
I think it was a bit of that and a capacity boost as even then there were quite a few Clacton and Colchester commuters which might have overwhelmed an 8-car train. The GEML has always been one of the most intensively worked routes out of London from the GER setting up the 'jazz' service around the turn of the 20th century, - steam hauled suburban services with a four minute dwell at Liverpool St. including a reversal and a loco change! The section to Shenfield was progressively four-tracked between the 1890s and the early 1930s, each time to relieve the congestion caused by ever increasing passenger demand. In my GE travelling days, 1968-1976, the inner suburban (class 306) outer suburban (classes 305/307/308) and mainline (classes 37/47 + LHCS and 309) were all interwoven between main (fast) and electric (slow) tracks with half of the intermediate Southend Victoria trains starting on the fasts in London, a stop in Straford, then slotting in between the slows after Gidea Park and finally slotting in between the faster Southend services at Shenfield. It didn't take much for the whole lines' services to be heavily delayed (often by careless passengers leaving doors open) on the Southends at Harold Wood/Brentwood/Shenfield electric line stops. The Clactons could generally keep to their paths out to Shenfield despite the numerous double and single yellows encountered, but a Norwich class47+11 LHCS would struggle to regain it's momentum after a check. The 17.30 to Yarmouth Vauxhall left LST just 2 minutes before the 17:32 outer suburban Colchester, and the 305s were often checked before their first stop at Chelmsford by the 47s trying to accelerate away from a delayed Southend weaving in front.
Frustrating as a commuter but interesting once the workings of the line was understood. All in all, not unlike the current MML peaks.

In my commuting days on that line you could sit behind the driver's cab and you would only hear the buzzer, never the bell, from Liverpool Street to Gidea Park and often not before Shenfield.

norbitonflyer · 24 Mar 2020

Grannyjoans said:
A single-car EMU would be fun, imagine how good the acceleration would be

Why would it be any better than any other number of cars. One of the advantages of multiple units over loco-hauled is that power increases with the number of cars, s each car or unit has its own power.

I do recall reading of an occasion when a Class 419 MLV was pressed into passenger service. There was a power failure on the Dover Marine branch and the MLV was pressed into service, on battery power, to shuttle passengers between there and Dover Priory - standing room only of course!

Grannyjoans · 25 Mar 2020

Why would it be any better than any other number of cars. One of the advantages of multiple units over loco-hauled is that power increases with the number of cars, s each car or unit has its own power.

Because all EMU's I know of have unpowered coaches-
323 (1 out of 3)
319 (3 out of 4!)
331/0 (1 out of 3)
331/1 (2 out of 4)

Why are there no single or two-car EMUs?

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