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Major upgrade planned for Lewisham station

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hkstudent

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Exactly. focus Blackheath on CST and Sidcup /Grove Park via CHX if going though Lewisham
(Hayes - CHX shouldn't go though Lewisham of course)
This is the overall principle mentioned in Kent Route Study and first draft of SE franchise consultation.
For Hayes, only VIC train will go via Lewisham.
 
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cle

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I don't think Hayes should have Cannon St trains for one... it would also season them into patterns for a future Bakerloo, and changing at London Bridge for Cannon St, as it follows the Bakerloo loosely in terms of serving Charing Cross/Embankment/Waterloo.

Had forgotten about Hayes-Victoria. Would that be above the current 4tph? Or split with Sidcup (and no more Vic-Bexleyheath?)
 

James90012

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The scale of the costs to sort out the tracks in the Lewisham area to fully grade separate would be enormous, and I'm not sure you could even do it in a reasonable parcel of land. At the end of the day, the Lewisham area already has a lot of grade separated lines and we should take advantage of that.

I'd agree that route simplification is the right thing to do here, and actually I think you could probably take 1-2 minutes out of the schedule of every train through Lewisham plus real substantial performance benefits - as other posters have noted it is basically expected that each service will come to a stand before moving into Lewisham. The crux though in selling this to the public is there isn't space to run additional services in the peaks into London CHX / CST - which I think would be necessary to make the case.

Meanwhile there is a severe passenger space environment issue which will be worsened by Bakerloo Line extension, I'm a little aghast at the first poster who suggested there were no issues here - it currently does not cope with what is expected of it and this will only get worse as more and more flats get built in the area.
 

hwl

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The scale of the costs to sort out the tracks in the Lewisham area to fully grade separate would be enormous, and I'm not sure you could even do it in a reasonable parcel of land. At the end of the day, the Lewisham area already has a lot of grade separated lines and we should take advantage of that.

I'd agree that route simplification is the right thing to do here, and actually I think you could probably take 1-2 minutes out of the schedule of every train through Lewisham plus real substantial performance benefits - as other posters have noted it is basically expected that each service will come to a stand before moving into Lewisham. The crux though in selling this to the public is there isn't space to run additional services in the peaks into London CHX / CST - which I think would be necessary to make the case.

Meanwhile there is a severe passenger space environment issue which will be worsened by Bakerloo Line extension, I'm a little aghast at the first poster who suggested there were no issues here - it currently does not cope with what is expected of it and this will only get worse as more and more flats get built in the area.
Route simplification is potentially very problematic at key locations such as Lewisham if it increases interchange passenger volumes
 

hkstudent

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I don't think Hayes should have Cannon St trains for one... it would also season them into patterns for a future Bakerloo, and changing at London Bridge for Cannon St, as it follows the Bakerloo loosely in terms of serving Charing Cross/Embankment/Waterloo.

Had forgotten about Hayes-Victoria. Would that be above the current 4tph? Or split with Sidcup (and no more Vic-Bexleyheath?)
It would be split with Sidcup, and Hayes Line will still have 4tph only.
And BXH line losing VIC service.
 

cle

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It would be split with Sidcup, and Hayes Line will still have 4tph only.
And BXH line losing VIC service.

Thanks, so even with the simplifications, what is the net increase? Yes reliability is here, but you'd think that with these changes, more might be squeezed in.

It seems to be up to 4tph for Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead to Lewisham and Victoria? Do these come at the expense of anything out of Victoria, or is this an overall increase of 2pth leaving Victoria (Eastern)? How about the long distance calls at Denmark Hill?

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent. Back to Lewisham, I think that it should be skipped by some services (eg Hayes to Charing X, 4tph fast) - to ensure that interchange happens at London Bridge where possible, it is now much better set up for that, and more frequent (plus anyone can stand for that final stretch, and a good turnover on trains, so folks can fit). Even Hither Green might be easier for some, being quieter.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks, so even with the simplifications, what is the net increase? Yes reliability is here, but you'd think that with these changes, more might be squeezed in.
There’s no net increase, because the London terminii are all full.
 

hwl

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There’s no net increase, because the London termini are all full.
Hence getting more of those 8 and 10car metro services to 12 car and reducing a few conflicting moves so junction occupation time doesn't go up - a very un-TfL solution.
 

Antman

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What's wrong with the current station? Just seems that stations that can suffice with their current layouts are being priorised over stations that need upgrading urgently!

What isn't wrong with it? Grossly overcrowded and the dangerous curved platforms must be the worst in the country.
 

Antman

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It is a hellmouth. And the Bakerloo would be

The nature of the platforms directs all passengers to a tiny 'apex' - and the DLR was built for a fraction of the usage of today.

They should revisit the single terminus idea, but only with commensurate frequency increases. Plus the Bakerloo covers Waterloo, Embankment/Charing Cross and the rest of the West End. So many would jump on an empty train at Lewisham. Journey times comparable. London Bridge users might be inconvenienced.
I recall 4tph were planned for Victoria via Denmark Hill (with the Brockley project doing) - but to be sent via Sidcup.

If Overground was added to the mix (frankly, the New Cross stub is little use, but a good inner turnback) - I'm not sure where it could go. Perhaps to Blackheath and that old bay platform - the crossing move wouldn't be too horrible. But it would add even more pressure to Lewisham.
I wouldn't say the New Cross stub of LO was of little use, of course it would be better if it went further south but obviously capacity is the problem.
 

Trackman

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... and the dangerous curved platforms must be the worst in the country.
It lost that crown a few weeks ago, track has been re-aligned and part of the P2 platform (with the man-sized gaps) has been raised with new platform edges, P1 platform will follow.
 

Mikey C

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Route simplification is potentially very problematic at key locations such as Lewisham if it increases interchange passenger volumes

It's the same issue with the Northern Line. Splitting it would release more capacity to run extra trains BUT the extra interchange passengers would completely overload Camden Town unless it's rebuilt
 

Chris M

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It's the same issue with the Northern Line. Splitting it would release more capacity to run extra trains BUT the extra interchange passengers would completely overload Camden Town unless it's rebuilt
And similar at Bank - the major works to increase pedestrian capacity are an absolute pre-requiste to increased Northern line and/or DLR services.
 

Antman

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It lost that crown a few weeks ago, track has been re-aligned and part of the P2 platform (with the man-sized gaps) has been raised with new platform edges, P1 platform will follow.

Jolly good, I've not been there recently.
 

Antman

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How about 4tph Victoria-Lewisham in that case, as I asked? Currently 2tph (3tph in peak hour)

Didn't there used to be 4tph between Lewisham and Victoria, 2tph non stop and 2tph all stations?
 

cle

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Other than the 3tph during very limited peak hour, it was always 2tph Victoria-Dartford via Bexleyheath, all stations from Denmark Hill. I used to commute from the latter, so know this route well. The last service used to be at about 1930, and then 2000, and finally about 2330 as others. It's very well used these days.

It is only ever 8 car due to the SLL stations' length (often 4 or 6 car forms though) so I'm not sure what the thinking is with Hayes, given the need to run everything at full length. Perhaps 2tph would be fast to Lewisham? But missing Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill would be unlikely I'm sure, both are now too busy and important. Denmark Hill was even added to the hourly Dover, plus a bunch of other peak mid distance services from Maidstone, Rochester etc I think. I only took them inbound to Victoria, and evening peak didn't have the reciprocal calls.
 

Deepgreen

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This and almost all other planned major projects will not take place for years, until the post-virus super-recession ends (say, 2035-40?).
 

Horizon22

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If this is just the station without any infrastructure improvements (the notorious Lewisham diamonds, Tanners Hill etc.) then it's only half the resolution. Yes some of the platforms are tiny and its very welcome and I presume is tied in with the Bakerloo extension.

Lewisham can't really cope with the current train plan in the peak, so it's welcome. But SE terminal rationalisation will help although its deeply deeply unpopular with the metro folk. Saying that London Bridge is not as bad an interchange as many think these days.

The whole Lewisham area is a complete mess from a infrastructure point of view but without ripping up all the new shiny flats and having a very expensive "start again", all we can expect is piecemeal upgrades,
 

Horizon22

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Agree on the splits in principle, but we do have a doubled (and under-utilised) Tanners Hill to help re Charing Cross.

The issue is keeping Cannon St services away from the southerly lines. I could Cannon St only serving routes via Greenwich and Blackheath in future. Including all North Kent. Everything at a higher frequency.

Optimal, but would be controversial I’m sure.

Tanners Hill doesn't really help that much; it's a flat junction on the London side and causes conflicts on the down with mainline services, not to mention holding anything behind it if there's a Bexleyheath waiting to cross (or the peak Orpington / Sidcup via Lewisham).

Also as mentioned the blocking moves.
 

cle

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Yep I did wonder about that, as that has doubled to 4tph too. A fair amount of traffic on that stretch - the fast Dover, a lot of diversions and some freight.

This Hayes/Sidcup move would see 8tph calling between Denmark Hill and Nunhead.
 

30907

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The uplift in Thameslink services might make the pathing tricky between Denmark Hill & Nunhead?
Wouldn't have thought that was significant: time was (early 70s) when both the Catford Loop AND the Lewisham route were 6tph at the busiest time, plus 3tph outer suburbans.
 

Trackman

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It lost that crown a few weeks ago, track has been re-aligned and part of the P2 platform (with the man-sized gaps) has been raised with new platform edges, P1 platform will follow.

P1 has now been completed.
 

ComUtoR

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I went through the station yesterday. No works have been done on platform 1 but platform 2 has had some platform work done. I haven't see any works done on the track but Easter weekend is coming up and I've seen some track dumped in preparation in various places.
 
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