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Commuting 60 miles: it should be cheaper by train than by car

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Hadders

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My commute works out cheaper to Drive in my car than to use the Train for a roughly 60 mile round trip it shouldn't work out like that something is wrong .
When you calculate the cost of driving are you including the full cost of operating a car?

Granted if you have a car anyway you'd pay some of the costs anyway but if you're driving 60 miles a day to get to and from work are you including the additional depreciation, servicing, tyres etc costs in addition to the cost of fuel?
 

yorkie

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My commute works out cheaper to drive in my car than to use the Train for a roughly 60 mile round trip. It shouldn't work out like that; something is wrong .
What's the train journey and the costs of that journey?

What are you counting as the costs by car, for example are you counting the total cost of motoring or just the marginal costs (and if the latter, which marginal costs are you counting, e.g. just fuel perhaps?)
 

cactustwirly

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When you calculate the cost of driving are you including the full cost of operating a car?

Granted if you have a car anyway you'd pay some of the costs anyway but if you're driving 60 miles a day to get to and from work are you including the additional depreciation, servicing, tyres etc costs in addition to the cost of fuel?
The costs of the other things are going to be negligible for a journey tbh.
Servicing in particular is not going to be an issue unless you're doing a serious amount of miles each year.
Anyway you can do an interim service at home, it's fairly easy and basically costs ~£30.
Tyres are expensive, but last for thousands of miles, so 60 miles isn't going to put a huge amount of wear on them.
 

underbank

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Most of the car costs are "sunk" costs, i..e they've already happened, so aren't part of the decision making process. It's only marginal costs that matter when decision making, i.e. the "extra" costs, such as fuel, slight increase in depreciation, slight increase in repairs/renewals, i.e. tyres and brakes would need replacing a bit sooner, slight increase in insurance if based on mileage, etc.

Many people will need a car for other purposes, especially those who don't live/work/shop near good public transport, so for them, it's basically a simple question which mode is cheaper for an extra journey. Of course, for those who don't have a car for other purposes, then it's a much bigger question whether or not to buy a car for specific journeys and that's when you have to compare total car costs inc the fixed/sunk costs. But in the latter case, you have to compare car costs against ALL potential public transport costs, as once you've got a car, you'll use less public transport, so it's no longer just comparing one journey mode with another for specific journeys.

I spent years studying and then working as a management accountant - it's fascinating work doing all kinds of "what if" scenarios, and it really hammers home what information is needed to enable proper decision making processes, inc all the different permutations etc.
 

Merle Haggard

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My commute works out cheaper to drive in my car than to use the Train for a roughly 60 mile round trip. It shouldn't work out like that; something is wrong .

If this is really commuting you will be doing it most working days - say 260 days a year. Your car will therefore cover around 15000-16000 miles per year.
For this mileage the costs of servicing, repairs, wear and tear (e.g. tyres) will not be negligible or marginal, and their costs should be included in the comparison with rail. You also might have to replace it earlier than otherwise.
You've not said how you calculate your motoring costs and it would be interesting to hear how you've done this.
 

GB

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This is going to be one of those comparisons where there is no one fit all answer as everyone will be different depending on their circumstances. The size and type of car one drives plays a huge part it costs right down to the size of the wheels and tyres.
 

Bletchleyite

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If this is really commuting you will be doing it most working days - say 260 days a year. Your car will therefore cover around 15000-16000 miles per year.
For this mileage the costs of servicing, repairs, wear and tear (e.g. tyres) will not be negligible or marginal, and their costs should be included in the comparison with rail. You also might have to replace it earlier than otherwise.
You've not said how you calculate your motoring costs and it would be interesting to hear how you've done this.

There will also be a fairly large whack on your insurance if doing 16000 miles a year.
 

robbeech

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If this is really commuting you will be doing it most working days - say 260 days a year. Your car will therefore cover around 15000-16000 miles per year.
For this mileage the costs of servicing, repairs, wear and tear (e.g. tyres) will not be negligible or marginal, and their costs should be included in the comparison with rail. You also might have to replace it earlier than otherwise.
You've not said how you calculate your motoring costs and it would be interesting to hear how you've done this.

Service intervals vary quite a bit more than they used to do. Many vehicles use computerised testing from sensors to work out the service intervals for cars (This has actually been happening with some vehicles for 20 years or more but is much more common place now). It means that if you do lots of short runs and drive quite inefficiently then the car will calculate a lower service interval than if you do longer distance runs driving efficiently. Many service intervals still operate in two forms, miles and time, they'll be for example, 15,000 miles OR 1 year, whichever comes first. So someone travelling 18,000 miles (to take your figure of 15,000 above and adding in some leisure miles) won't necessarily be servicing their car much more frequently than someone doing 5,000 miles per year. So the servicing cost needs to be remembered, but in many of these types of calculations it can be discounted. Wear on tyres, brakes, and other things are of course significant, although brake wear depends on driving style and the journey, so again, someone living 5 minutes from the motorway, working 5 minutes from the motorway 6 junctions away might not be using the brakes that often.

The key thing here is that despite the anti car brigade (thankfully not seen any in this thread) doing everything they can to tell people it is NEVER cheaper to use the car because your running costs are <insert figure several times the real costs> that SOME journeys ARE cheaper to do in the car, and some are not. And this of course is before you put a value on your time. If i worked in Derby, the commute is 40 minutes by car or anything upwards of 1hr40 by train, involving 1 or 2 changes depending on the time of day. The cost of a train ticket (£18.90) is probably around the same as the running costs of the vehicle, it's £9-£10 in fuel for a round trip so there's potentially a small cost saving in driving but if i value my working time at minimum wage, a mere 5th of the chargeable rate for what i'm going to do then the extra journey time instantly becomes more expensive. Nothing that hasn't been covered before countless times of course.
 

robbeech

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There will also be a fairly large whack on your insurance if doing 16000 miles a year.
What is a fairly large whack?

I've just done a random quote for one of my cars (i have a fleet policy with the business so don't insure them separately), and the difference between 8000 miles and 15000 miles on the quote was £9 over the year. (From £421 to £430). However, the difference between 15000 miles and 30000 was nearly £60.
 

cactustwirly

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Depends on your insurer, and obviously scaled up if you're young and/or have no "no claims bonus".

It was cheaper for me to increase my mileage, on my insurance policy. Car insurance is very weird, almost seems like a lottery sometimes.
 

Domh245

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Mileage is probably a bit of an inverse u shape curve in terms of impact on price. At the end of the day, the price is determined by how risky the insurer perceives you to be, so if you are not driving many miles, the insurer will see you as risky (infrequent driving, or frequent-ish short trips, likely in a city) whereas once you go past a certain number of miles, it starts to just become law of averages that you'll be involved in an incident. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet-spot of driving frequently enough but not too much to be minimal risk.
 

Harpers Tate

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If you only account for fuel, and if your car does, say 45mpg (for round figures) that's a fuel cost of about 10p/mile. Less for a more efficient car. Add a 50% markup (generous) for the iother marginal costs = 15p/mile.
50 miles by train for £7.50? Not in many places here, I suspect. 53 miles from Hull > Scarborough costs (off peak one way) more than double that; York > Scarborough (43 miles) costs yet more still.
 

deltic

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We shouldnt be encouraging people to travel 30 miles each way to work regardless of what mode of transport they use - its part of the reason we have a climate emergency
 

cactustwirly

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We shouldnt be encouraging people to travel 30 miles each way to work regardless of what mode of transport they use - its part of the reason we have a climate emergency

But most people don't have a choice, unfortunately my workplace can't be next to my house.
 

Merle Haggard

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Just a thought for those who argue that the extra mileage only increases costs marginally.
If you are costing your vehicle (and presumably the OP is, as that was the basis of the question) correctly and you regard the extra 15000 miles as marginal you must cost the base mileage fully. If you at present use the car for, say, 5000 miles a year for shopping and leisure, fully exhaust your costs over that mileage and you will find, probably, that while the car is cheaper than the train for the marginal mileage, the cost per mile for the base 5000 is such that it could well be cheaper to use a taxi.
Of course you may regard a car as essential for some reason or another (they perform functions other than just transport) and just sink its costs. But, in that case, the decision car vs train is not based on costs, either.
 

Tracked

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I have a similar distance journey, and I've used my season ticket for non-work things fairly often (usually the last leg on my journey from an afternoon in town, gigs in places between home and work, to the week I had: a Heart of England rover, a season ticket from CHD to Derby, and my season ticket), most of involve beer and couldn't have been done in car :|
 

Harpers Tate

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If you want to account for TOTAL costs (which is arguably flawed; many of us just about need to have the use of a car; there are just too many cases where public transport or active travel cannot meet the need).......
in November 2017 I bought a brand new car for cash. To be fair and transparent, it was not an "average" car - it was electric.

I paid £24850 for it.
After two years, I traded it in. They gave me £20,180. £20,000 was right on the money according to an online valuation site.
In the two years, we did about 18,500 miles.

ACTUAL outgoings - all of them - were:
Depreciation: £4,670
Fuel (all costs involved in recharging accounted for, including parking fees where needed to access a charge point, and domestic usage): £354.68
Insurance: year 1 £399.84; year 2 £259.84
Road Tax (VED): Nil
Tyres (2 replaced): £137.82
Service year 1: £70.79; year 2 £nil (offset in trade in valuation)
No other maintenance costs.

TOTAL: £5892.97 = ~32p/mile.
50 miles at 32p = £16, which is about equal to the one way Hull > Scarborough train fare, off peak. It's STILL less than the York > Scarborough fare, and likely to be much less than 50 mile journeys in the more popular places and/or on premium routes.
That is ALL costs, including sunk cost of ownership taken into account.
For that, I get a clean environment, usually a quick and direct trip right to where I'm going and a guaranteed seat; and I can take four other people with me at no measurable extra cost.

No contest.
 

DynamicSpirit

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That looks like a pretty good, thorough, way of accounting for costs.

One little niggle: You also need to take account of the £20 180 of cash that you didn't have between buying the car and selling it for that amount two years later. If you already had the money and it would have otherwise been sitting in a bank account earning a tiny amount of interest, then that probably wouldn't be very much and wouldn't significantly change anything. If you had to borrow the money then it would make a much bigger difference.
 

HSTEd

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Let's take a typical commute, one my father used to do back in the day.

Nottingham-Grantham, annual season cost is £1800.
We will assume that you live at Grantham station and work at Nottingham station, which as you might imagine very heavily favours the train option.

Assuming 240 days at work (5-days a week, 48 weeks a year), we get to £7.50 each day.

According to dacia a Sandero on PCP is £500 down at £106.11 per month. Comes with free servicing. The downpayment is negligible compared to the capital input required to buy an annual season (4 year contract length reduces it to something like 50p per day)
Tax is £145/annum, which takes total non-fuel/insurance costs to ~£118/month. Or approximately £5.90 per day.


Fuel for a journey of 47 mile round trip is going to be approximately one imperial gallon apparently. So about 4.5 litres of petrol expanded. Or about £5.50 per day.
Insurance for myself working this hypothetical job is on order of £66/month for Third Party Fire and Theft with none of the random add ons that are not that useful in terms of value per unit cost.
So about £2.75 per day.

So overall, making the heroic assumptions that this car is onyl for this purpose and we live directly adjacent to the station, annual season ticket is £7.50 per day and the car is about £14.15 per day.
So the annual season ticket appears tow in easily.
However is requires a capital cost of £1800 rather than £500 for the car.
So we should probably compare to 3 month seasons.
3 month season is £519.60, so that takes our cost to more like £8.66 per day.
So the train still wins but we are still making lots of heroic assumptions.

If we change our positions to more reasonable positions in Nottingham and Grantham we will require a season ticket for buses in Grantham and Nottingham.
Grantham Monthly bus ticket will be £48 - so £2.40 per day by itself. (This is the longest ticket they sell)
Nottingham annual ticket is more complicated, but if we take the 'Easyrider' from NCT the best way is to buy two a year, with 150 days and 100 days each, which works out £651 per year. This is substantially cheaper than the annual one and spreads the capital expenditure. This is ~£2.71 per day.

This fits within our ~£500 capital budget if we assume optimal staggers of the ticket purchases.
This takes us to about £12.60 per day for the train option with a bus ride at each end.
I will assume the fuel burn is increased by 10% for the car to account for the short joruneys at each end, which takes us to about £14.50 per day.

So bus+train+bus is only beating the car option by about one or two pounds a day.
It doesn't take much outside-work use for the car to win.

Ignoring PCP-charges (as they will likely already have the car) that takes us to about £8.65 per day for the car.
That is the mark public transport has to reach.

We need to cut fares by half to really be competitive is what I think is the takeaway from this.
 

cactustwirly

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Let's take a typical commute, one my father used to do back in the day.

Nottingham-Grantham, annual season cost is £1800.
We will assume that you live at Grantham station and work at Nottingham station, which as you might imagine very heavily favours the train option.

Assuming 240 days at work (5-days a week, 48 weeks a year), we get to £7.50 each day.

According to dacia a Sandero on PCP is £500 down at £106.11 per month. Comes with free servicing. The downpayment is negligible compared to the capital input required to buy an annual season (4 year contract length reduces it to something like 50p per day)
Tax is £145/annum, which takes total non-fuel/insurance costs to ~£118/month. Or approximately £5.90 per day.


Fuel for a journey of 47 mile round trip is going to be approximately one imperial gallon apparently. So about 4.5 litres of petrol expanded. Or about £5.50 per day.
Insurance for myself working this hypothetical job is on order of £66/month for Third Party Fire and Theft with none of the random add ons that are not that useful in terms of value per unit cost.
So about £2.75 per day.

So overall, making the heroic assumptions that this car is onyl for this purpose and we live directly adjacent to the station, annual season ticket is £7.50 per day and the car is about £14.15 per day.
So the annual season ticket appears tow in easily.
However is requires a capital cost of £1800 rather than £500 for the car.
So we should probably compare to 3 month seasons.
3 month season is £519.60, so that takes our cost to more like £8.66 per day.
So the train still wins but we are still making lots of heroic assumptions.

If we change our positions to more reasonable positions in Nottingham and Grantham we will require a season ticket for buses in Grantham and Nottingham.
Grantham Monthly bus ticket will be £48 - so £2.40 per day by itself. (This is the longest ticket they sell)
Nottingham annual ticket is more complicated, but if we take the 'Easyrider' from NCT the best way is to buy two a year, with 150 days and 100 days each, which works out £651 per year. This is substantially cheaper than the annual one and spreads the capital expenditure. This is ~£2.71 per day.

This fits within our ~£500 capital budget if we assume optimal staggers of the ticket purchases.
This takes us to about £12.60 per day for the train option with a bus ride at each end.
I will assume the fuel burn is increased by 10% for the car to account for the short joruneys at each end, which takes us to about £14.50 per day.

So bus+train+bus is only beating the car option by about one or two pounds a day.
It doesn't take much outside-work use for the car to win.

Ignoring PCP-charges (as they will likely already have the car) that takes us to about £8.65 per day for the car.
That is the mark public transport has to reach.

We need to cut fares by half to really be competitive is what I think is the takeaway from this.

Your estimate for insurance is definitely wrong, as third party is more expensive than fully comprehensive!

Anyway who says you need to buy a new car on PCP?
You can buy a decent ~ 10 year old car for £3000 ish, which is what you'd pay for your average season ticket.
 

VauxhallandI

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If this is really commuting you will be doing it most working days - say 260 days a year. Your car will therefore cover around 15000-16000 miles per year.
For this mileage the costs of servicing, repairs, wear and tear (e.g. tyres) will not be negligible or marginal, and their costs should be included in the comparison with rail. You also might have to replace it earlier than otherwise.
You've not said how you calculate your motoring costs and it would be interesting to hear how you've done this.

A more accurate number of days to use is generally considered 220
 

HSTEd

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Your estimate for insurance is definitely wrong, as third party is more expensive than fully comprehensive!
Apparently its about 40p per day more expensive.
Not sure it is really that significant.
Anyway who says you need to buy a new car on PCP?
You can buy a decent ~ 10 year old car for £3000 ish, which is what you'd pay for your average season ticket.

Because I wanted easily confirmable figures and I didn't want arguments about capital cost value or servicing costs.
And £3000 is much more than the price of the season ticket I chose for comparison.
 

gg1

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Your estimate for insurance is definitely wrong, as third party is more expensive than fully comprehensive!

Anyway who says you need to buy a new car on PCP?
You can buy a decent ~ 10 year old car for £3000 ish, which is what you'd pay for your average season ticket.

Equally your £3k could also get you a car which SEEMS decent for few months then develops a major fault leaving it beyond economical repair. If you can afford it PCP or lease is the safe, reliable car option from a financial perspective so is a better comparison when weighing up the pros and cons of a hypothetical commute by car or rail.
 

cactustwirly

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Equally your £3k could also get you a car which SEEMS decent for few months then develops a major fault leaving it beyond economical repair. If you can afford it PCP or lease is the safe, reliable car option from a financial perspective so is a better comparison when weighing up the pros and cons of a hypothetical commute by car or rail.

Which is why you're careful when you buy, look for full service history etc, but it's very unlikely for a car of that age to develop a big fault like that.
 

talltim

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If you travel on a subsidised rail line, then that’s a sunk cost (in your tax paid) that you are not even using if you go by car
 

tbtc

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You take the train:
  • Some is paid to sell you a ticket
  • Some is paid to drive the train
  • Some is paid to "conduct" the train
  • Some is paid to clean the train
  • Some is paid to control the signals
  • Fuel costs money
  • Leasing the train costs money
  • Leaving aside a percentage to cover "delay repay" costs money
  • Maintaining the track costs money
Sometimes that can be several people required to perform those tasks, generally above the average UK salary (say over £25k - not intending to get into an argument about staff wages, just pointing out that there are a lot of highly skilled professional jobs in the railway industry). The ticket price is intended to reflect these kind of costs

If you drive then you are either doing all of those things yourself (driving, cleaning), or they are things paid for by general taxation (traffic lights, road maintenance) - other than fuel. And the fuel costs for a modern car are going to be relatively low (given improvements in mpg) compared to a train that may still be running a diesel engine from thirty years ago and therefore not very energy efficient.

So, if you are only comparing the price at the petrol pump with the cost of a train ticket then it's a bit like complaining that Air B&B is cheaper than a hotel (when a hotel means paying for receptionist/ cleaner/ security etc, rather than just renting a place).

I'm all for train travel being "affordable", but when you consider how many jobs there are to make sure that your journey works, I'm surprised that people are surprised at the fact that train travel generally costs more than you performing the majority of those tasks yourself.

Wast here ever a "golden age" where train travel was generally cheaper than motoring? I'm happy for there to be some subsidies but given the large amount of jobs in the modern railway industry, is it reasonable for the general taxpayer to cover the cost of these professional salaries so that the minority of people who take the train can do so at a marginal cost equivalent to a tank full of petrol?
 
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