1960s rationalisation - which stations might have survived on other lines?

infobleep · 27 Mar 2020

Are there any places that would have retained stations during the 1960s rationalisation, had there been four tracks instead of two going through them or they weren't on a high speed line?

I don't mean if they had been in a different part of thr country though.

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Iskra · 27 Mar 2020

I think Garstang & Catterall. It was a junction station for another branch and if it wasn't for being on the WCML it could have survived.

I think there could be quite a few contenders on the Northern ECML and WCML that could sustain a station but were cut to rationalise and speed up express services.

Captain Bigwig · 27 Mar 2020

Quite a few I think. Wooten Bassett on the GWML springs to mind.

Dr Hoo · 27 Mar 2020

Although it is hard to generalise many 'wayside' stations on main lines were often poorly situated in relation to the communities that they were named after as the route had been chosen with a view to linking the main traffic objectives at either end rather than meagre intermediate prospects.
Such stations also usually had had very irregular and infrequent services (often built around 'van' traffic such as mail, parcels and newspapers rather than passengers) with little commercial appeal. So they had little revenue and their services were heavy loss-makers, especially as the ancillary traffic ebbed away to more road-based centralised distribution patterns.

30907 · 27 Mar 2020

Interesting question.
First, parameters: we assume services, populations, employment patterns etc. at mid-60s levels.
I think the most likely routes have been identified already - ECML, WCML, GWML.
(There is a known earlier case - intermediate stations York-Scarborough were closed in the 30s, officially to prioritise holiday traffic.)
Second, you can reverse the question (I don't think it deserves its own thread, and might help answer the original): which stations...would have closed but for being on multiple track lines?

So: ECML - bearing in mind that the NER closed stations York-Northallerton despite there being quadruple track - Bawtry and Ferryhill seem the most likely to have stayed open. Sandy might perhaps have closed along with Bedford -Cambridge.
WCML - Hest Bank and Bolton le Sands might have remained open, as well as Garstang; Norton Bridge, Polesworth and Atherstone (and Acton Bridge?) closed.
GWML - can't think of any others (Wantage Road, but that was 4-track).

But you then have to ask - what trains would realistically have served them? IMO that knocks out Bawtry, Wootton Bassett and probably Garstang, because there were no (or few) suitable class 2 services on the route (not sure about Garstang, and can't locate a late 60s timetable).
That leaves Ferryhill - to be served by a handful of peak hour Darlington-Newcastle DMUs, and Hest Bank/Bolton le Sands - covered by local services north of Lancaster. Except that I suspect the last two would have actually been served by such good bus services that rail would have stood no chance anyway.

infobleep · 27 Mar 2020

Captain Bigwig said:
Quite a few I think. Wooten Bassett on the GWML springs to mind.

That is one I thought of but didn't know enough about it's history in the 60s.

Taunton · 27 Mar 2020

Places like Wootten Bassett are far larger now (essentially a Swindon suburb) than they were then. But what you find is stations were closed because there was insufficient traffic, not because they were operationally inconvenient. Often this went hand-in-hand with the withdrawl of local services, which served a string of main line stations, all of which were not worthwhile. Given the line usage of those times, with notably less frequent main line services and a lot of freight running at night, stopping train services were not an issue.

And as described above, so many stations were inconveniently sited for the place they were named after, while the local bus service, far more widespread and frequent then, ran down the main street. Take Garstang as an example, given above. Quite a sizeable place nowadays. But the station was probably more than two miles away, through fields, down an unlit narrow country road with no pavement. In fact it was named Garstang & Catterall. Inevitably, it was not convenient for either.

yorksrob · 27 Mar 2020

I think that some of the stations between Taunton and Exeter might have syrvived had the route been quadruple.

johnnychips · 27 Mar 2020

Did Rossington and Tuxford ever have stations? Along with Bawtry they are small towns on the ECML, but all three locations were convenient to the settlement, not miles out of town.

30907 · 27 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
I think that some of the stations between Taunton and Exeter might have syrvived had the route been quadruple.

Yes, I wondered about those - Wellington and Cullompton anyway - thouh except on summer Saturdays track occupation wasn't a major issue.

johnnychips said:
Did Rossington and Tuxford ever have stations? Along with Bawtry they are small towns on the ECML, but all three locations were convenient to the settlement, not miles out of town.

Both did, though the centre of Tuxford is well away from the railway.

Both these suggestions are cases where it would have been difficult to serve them without dedicated stopping services.

Ashley Hill · 27 Mar 2020

30907 said:
Yes, I wondered about those - Wellington and Cullompton anyway - thouh except on summer Saturdays track occupation wasn't a major issue.

Both Wellington and Cullompton had platform loops as had Sampford Peverell which is now Tiverton Parkway. Wellington and Cullompton are both towns that are growing rapidly and deserve a railway service.

Bevan Price · 27 Mar 2020

Apart from points mentioned above, the number & times of trains serving some of the intermediate stations were poor and unattractive. Some of those stations might have attracted more passengers, and maybe survived - if they had had better services.

For example, Garstang & Catterall departures (Mon. - Fri.), Summer 1960
Southbound
07:26 (Morecambe - Accrington)
09:16 (Windermere - Manchester (Ex.) & Liverpool (Ex.)
17:55 (Morecambe Euston Rd. - Preston)
19:37 (Workington - Liverpool Ex.)
and Northbound:
07:38 (Warrington - Carlisle)
08:29 (Preston - Windermere)
18:55 (Liverpool Ex. - Workington)
With a station about 2 miles from the town, no chance of competing with slow, but more frequent bus services between Preston & Lancaster passing through Garstang town centre.

Hest Bank fared a bit better with southbound departures at:
06:42, 07:41, 08:08, 08:28. 09:53, 16:35, 17:46, 19:06, 19:43, (plus 18:28 & 20:31 to Morecambe Euston Rd.)
and northbound at:
07:27, 08:59, 09:39, 09:51, 10:31, 11:26, 13:48, 15:25, 16:39, 17:44, 18:43, 19:26, 20:55 (plus 21:00 ex-Morecambe)
So, apart from a few peak hour trains, not really good enough to compete with slower - but much more frequent buses between Lancaster & Carnforth.

Some of the above (maybe about half) also called at Bolton Le Sands.

infobleep · 28 Mar 2020

Some of the stations closed might have had a nore frequent service if they hadn't been on the main high speed lines.

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

30907 said:
Yes, I wondered about those - Wellington and Cullompton anyway - thouh except on summer Saturdays track occupation wasn't a major issue.

They both appeared to be quite close to their settlements as well.

70014IronDuke · 28 Mar 2020

30907 said:
... Second, you can reverse the question (I don't think it deserves its own thread, and might help answer the original): which stations...would have closed but for being on multiple track lines? ...

It's not quite that though, is it? I mean, Bedford - Kettering was four track, but all the wayside stations got the chop, and that was 1958-60 (or thereabouts).

30907 said:
... Sandy might perhaps have closed along with Bedford -Cambridge. ...

Indeed. In the mid-60s, I suspect the branch had more daily passengers than the GN line, which had an appalling service, except for two commuter trains to/from KX each day. (So I dare say the fare box take on the GN side was more than on the LNW, because of the longer trips done by commuters.)

Away from the London commuter zone (which, of course, expanded over time), the only chance smaller, wayside stations usually had was if the main service was of a secondary nature. So, if the Waterloo - Exeter route had been chosen instead of the GWR, we'd probqably have seen a slew of closures west of Salisbury, and a bunch of station kept on the Berks and Hants - assuming it would have survived, with significant singling.

No BR manager wanted to stop a Class 1 train at Garstang and Catterall. Heck, they closed Carnforth main line platforms, and they were, arguably, worth keeping for faster connections to the Furness line.

But even on secondary routes, you have to wonder how some stations survived eg Manea (or were reopened - Dent, for example) and others closed eg Soham.

30907 · 28 Mar 2020

infobleep said:
Some of the stations closed might have had a nore frequent service if they hadn't been on the main high speed lines.

If you mean "if they'd been on quadruple track" as per your original question, yes it would have made more frequent services possible, but there would also have had to be sufficient demand to justify running the trains.

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

70014IronDuke said:
It's not quite that though, is it? I mean, Bedford - Kettering was four track, but all the wayside stations got the chop, and that was 1958-60 (or thereabouts).

Indeed. In the mid-60s, I suspect the branch had more daily passengers than the GN line, which had an appalling service, except for two commuter trains to/from KX each day. (So I dare say the fare box take on the GN side was more than on the LNW, because of the longer trips done by commuters.)

Away from the London commuter zone (which, of course, expanded over time), the only chance smaller, wayside stations usually had was if the main service was of a secondary nature. So, if the Waterloo - Exeter route had been chosen instead of the GWR, we'd probqably have seen a slew of closures west of Salisbury, and a bunch of station kept on the Berks and Hants - assuming it would have survived, with significant singling.

No BR manager wanted to stop a Class 1 train at Garstang and Catterall. Heck, they closed Carnforth main line platforms, and they were, arguably, worth keeping for faster connections to the Furness line.

But even on secondary routes, you have to wonder how some stations survived eg Manea (or were reopened - Dent, for example) and others closed eg Soham.

Dent reopened because no one got around to demolishing the platforms.

70014IronDuke · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
Dent reopened because no one got around to demolishing the platforms.

OK, but I got the impression there were other closed stations on the route that were equally 'preserved' but were not reopened? Two-three at the northern end. BICBW.

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

70014IronDuke said:
OK, but I got the impression there were other closed stations on the route that were equally 'preserved' but were not reopened? Two-three at the northern end. BICBW.

Yes, there were. Possibly not opened due to the lack of tourist opportunity.

Not to mention poor old Crosby Garrett which had its platforms demolished for some reason.

RT4038 · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
They both appeared to be quite close to their settlements as well.

They were quite close, but the 'bus services were even closer, and much more frequent than the train service. (Wellington had a 30 minute interval service into Taunton and Cullompton at least hourly, with extras.) Also the buses ran right into the commercial heart of both Taunton and Exeter, where in both places the railway stations were not particularly convenient for the needs of local passengers. In those days I expect the 'buses were more reliable (no waiting for late running connections from far away places) , were certainly cleaner than steam hauled stock, and the timetables catered for a much wider range of departure times. (The Passenger train service being limited to about 5 trains per day, one on Sundays).

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

RT4038 said:
They were quite close, but the 'bus services were even closer, and much more frequent than the train service. (Wellington had a 30 minute interval service into Taunton and Cullompton at least hourly, with extras.) Also the buses ran right into the commercial heart of both Taunton and Exeter, where in both places the railway stations were not particularly convenient for the needs of local passengers. In those days I expect the 'buses were more reliable (no waiting for late running connections from far away places) , were certainly cleaner than steam hauled stock, and the timetables catered for a much wider range of departure times. (The Passenger train service being limited to about 5 trains per day, one on Sundays).

Fair point.

I wonder whether a Southern Region style interval service could have given the buses a run for their money.

RT4038 · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
Fair point.

I wonder whether a Southern Region style interval service could have given the buses a run for their money.

I rather suspect not. The poor (for local traffic) location of both Exeter St. Davids and Taunton stations rather put the 'bus service in an unassailable competitive position. The absence (at that time) of any possibility of longer distance commuters (say to Bristol or London) would have meant reliance on local passengers to whom the 'bus service was more convenient and had been from the 1920s. There would have been some long distance passengers, but a fair proportion of these would have been taken by motor transport to Taunton or Exeter by the 1960s, rather than changing onto the local service. The retention of Tiverton Junction, and later the development of Tiverton Parkway recognises this.

A Southern Region style interval service ( I am guessing you are thinking of an hourly service?) would have been a significant constraint on the scheduling of long distance services over this section of main line. I know some of the intermediate stations had platform loops, but there would be a significant delay in allowing express trains (either scheduled or running out of course) to pass the local service, thereby reducing the attractiveness for the users. Indeed some of the few local trains on the line prior to closure did just that, contributing to long intermediate waits.

Southern Region style interval services did not save every Southern Region line, and it is significant that there were very few west of Southampton and Salisbury, where the 'pull' of London commuting would have been weak or non existent.

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

RT4038 said:
I rather suspect not. The poor (for local traffic) location of both Exeter St. Davids and Taunton stations rather put the 'bus service in an unassailable competitive position. The absence (at that time) of any possibility of longer distance commuters (say to Bristol or London) would have meant reliance on local passengers to whom the 'bus service was more convenient and had been from the 1920s. There would have been some long distance passengers, but a fair proportion of these would have been taken by motor transport to Taunton or Exeter by the 1960s, rather than changing onto the local service. The retention of Tiverton Junction, and later the development of Tiverton Parkway recognises this.

A Southern Region style interval service ( I am guessing you are thinking of an hourly service?) would have been a significant constraint on the scheduling of long distance services over this section of main line. I know some of the intermediate stations had platform loops, but there would be a significant delay in allowing express trains (either scheduled or running out of course) to pass the local service, thereby reducing the attractiveness for the users. Indeed some of the few local trains on the line prior to closure did just that, contributing to long intermediate waits.

Southern Region style interval services did not save every Southern Region line, and it is significant that there were very few west of Southampton and Salisbury, where the 'pull' of London commuting would have been weak or non existent.

I do wonder, if you were going from Wellington to Exeter and further west for example, the bus would have been all that competitive.

That aside, the OP was pondering whether intermediate stations would have survived had there been quadruple track. That would have sorted out the trains blocking expresses issue anyway.

RT4038 · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
I do wonder, if you were going from Wellington to Exeter and further west for example, the bus would have been all that competitive.

That aside, the OP was pondering whether intermediate stations would have survived had there been quadruple track. That would have sorted out the trains blocking expresses issue anyway.

You are right, the bus from Wellington to Exeter would not have been so competitive, requiring a change at Cullompton. However, at the time of closure, I would think very few passengers would have travelled west from Wellington, certainly not on a regular basis. (The one Sunday train was basically a scheduled Taunton-Kingswear excursion). People were much more parochial then. If you lived in Wellington and got a job in Exeter, you would move to Exeter. For all other activities, the fares were much cheaper to Taunton (and the bus service so much more convenient) so you would go there. Society has so completely changed since then, such behaviour is scarcely believable!

RT4038 · 28 Mar 2020

70014IronDuke said:
It's not quite that though, is it? I mean, Bedford - Kettering was four track, but all the wayside stations got the chop, and that was 1958-60 (or thereabouts).

Indeed. In the mid-60s, I suspect the branch had more daily passengers than the GN line, which had an appalling service, except for two commuter trains to/from KX each day. (So I dare say the fare box take on the GN side was more than on the LNW, because of the longer trips done by commuters.)

Away from the London commuter zone (which, of course, expanded over time), the only chance smaller, wayside stations usually had was if the main service was of a secondary nature. So, if the Waterloo - Exeter route had been chosen instead of the GWR, we'd probqably have seen a slew of closures west of Salisbury, and a bunch of station kept on the Berks and Hants - assuming it would have survived, with significant singling.

No BR manager wanted to stop a Class 1 train at Garstang and Catterall. Heck, they closed Carnforth main line platforms, and they were, arguably, worth keeping for faster connections to the Furness line.

But even on secondary routes, you have to wonder how some stations survived eg Manea (or were reopened - Dent, for example) and others closed eg Soham.

I would think that the main reason for the intermediate station between Bedford and Kettering closing would be that very few passengers used them, and that there was to be a saving to be made by not running the local trains. What local passenger traffic there ever was will have been taken over by the splendid omnibus services in the area, which no doubt ran through main street of the villages and went to the centre of the towns, rather than the inconveniently sited stations (Wellingborough and Finedon Road being two prime examples). Long distance traffic originiating on stopping trains would be insignificant. Stopping passenger trains were hopeless loss makers; the stopping passenger service between Berwick and Edinburgh being examined in detail in the Beeching report.

You are possibly right about Sandy, except that it was a market town with a well sited station and as such would have generated more business than the village stations such as Offord & Buckden, Tempsford, Arlesey etc. Thinking about Tempsford, whose station was way outside the village. Tempsford people would have wanted mainly to go to Bedford (which the train didn't) or St. Neots (whose station is on the edge of town, way away from the shops) . No wonder the residents opted for the Eastern National omnibus as soon as it started !

I am not sure that any more stations would have survived on the Berks and Hants line in the scenario you suggest - none of those closed were in any sizeable settlement (Woodborough, Patney & Chirton, Savernake etc). I suspect that the Castle Cary-Taunton section would have closed completely anyway in that scenario. The slew of closures of small stations west of Salisbury happened anyway.

It is strange that odd wayside stations survived, in the same way that some whole lines survived whereas others that appear more useful were closed. Some of these were for political considerations (both internal and external) or sometimes due to the road geography or a particular traffic source that is maybe long gone.
What is definite is that there has been seismic societal change from then to now!

infobleep · 28 Mar 2020

30907 said:
If you mean "if they'd been on quadruple track" as per your original question, yes it would have made more frequent services possible, but there would also have had to be sufficient demand to justify running the trains.

But with more trains would they tap into greater demand, due to a better service?

30907 · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
That aside, the OP was pondering whether intermediate stations would have survived had there been quadruple track. That would have sorted out the trains blocking expresses issue anyway.

Fair point - or, putting it the other way, the locals would have got a clear run, which would have improved loadings and economics. Remember that 1% per 1mph InterCity used to claim? Not that it would have made a vast difference in most cases - you could accelerate Taunton-Exeter stoppers by 10mph, but 10% uplift of 50 passengers is still only 5 (I don't have passenger figures for that line, but 50 would have been generous for Yeovil-Exeter stoppers in the early 60s, the figures are somewhere in a volume of Main Line to the West/Irwell Press.

yorksrob · 28 Mar 2020

30907 said:
Fair point - or, putting it the other way, the locals would have got a clear run, which would have improved loadings and economics. Remember that 1% per 1mph InterCity used to claim? Not that it would have made a vast difference in most cases - you could accelerate Taunton-Exeter stoppers by 10mph, but 10% uplift of 50 passengers is still only 5 (I don't have passenger figures for that line, but 50 would have been generous for Yeovil-Exeter stoppers in the early 60s, the figures are somewhere in a volume of Main Line to the West/Irwell Press.

Indeed. I suspect that in the event, two of the tracks would have just been lifted anyway.

Taunton · 28 Mar 2020

yorksrob said:
I do wonder, if you were going from Wellington to Exeter and further west for example, the bus would have been all that competitive.

One for me I suppose ...

Believe it or not, at closure time there was no bus service west from Wellington. None. There was a Western National double decker every 20 minutes out from Taunton, opposite end of the town to the station, which then alternately fanned out to a couple of points a bit further on, but Rockwell Green on the main A38 was the end. Thereafter there was a complete void in bus service until you got over the Devon border to Willand, whereupon the Devon General company picked up with services to Exeter through Cullompton.

It apparently surprised some John O' Groats to Lands End travellers by bus in the 1960s, no particular planning, just taking the next one as they found it, got all the way from Scotland to Taunton, then nothing direct to Exeter. Had to go via Honiton.

Much of this is because Taunton (and Wellington) have surprisingly little focus on Exeter, they relate principally to Bristol, despite it being further. Of course, there are all the expresses, and now the motorway, but in all the years I lived there and visited I hardly went to the place. Went to Torquay and beyond more.

The train service from Taunton to Exeter at closure was typical. There were regular non-stop expresses (though not turn up and go), and about five locals a day which stopped at all the stations. That was it. There was no semi-fast service to the more significant places, it was one or the other. Even the daily Cardiff-Plymouth Class 124 dmu, nearest thing to a semi-fast, ran non-stop.

Of the stations for the two largest places along the way, both Wellington and Cullompton had the station the furthest out building in the town, and really beyond walking distance from the centre. Wellington, in fact in a neighbouring village called Tonedale, was at least alongside houses all the way, with a pavement; Cullompton wasn't, through open fields on a main unlit A road. Not now but they were then. Wellington had a bus along the road, just once an hour, but guess what - it was one of those buses from Taunton!

RT4038 · 28 Mar 2020

Taunton said:
One for me I suppose ...

Believe it or not, at closure time there was no bus service west from Wellington. None. There was a Western National double decker every 20 minutes out from Taunton, opposite end of the town to the station, which then alternately fanned out to a couple of points a bit further on, but Rockwell Green on the main A38 was the end. Thereafter there was a complete void in bus service until you got over the Devon border to Willand, whereupon the Devon General company picked up with services to Exeter through Cullompton.

It apparently surprised some John O' Groats to Lands End travellers by bus in the 1960s, no particular planning, just taking the next one as they found it, got all the way from Scotland to Taunton, then nothing direct to Exeter. Had to go via Honiton.

Much of this is because Taunton (and Wellington) have surprisingly little focus on Exeter, they relate principally to Bristol, despite it being further. Of course, there are all the expresses, and now the motorway, but in all the years I lived there and visited I hardly went to the place. Went to Torquay and beyond more.

The train service from Taunton to Exeter at closure was typical. There were regular non-stop expresses (though not turn up and go), and about five locals a day which stopped at all the stations. That was it. There was no semi-fast service to the more significant places, it was one or the other. Even the daily Cardiff-Plymouth Class 124 dmu, nearest thing to a semi-fast, ran non-stop.

Of the stations for the two largest places along the way, both Wellington and Cullompton had the station the furthest out building in the town, and really beyond walking distance from the centre. Wellington, in fact in a neighbouring village called Tonedale, was at least alongside houses all the way, with a pavement; Cullompton wasn't, through open fields on a main unlit A road. Not now but they were then. Wellington had a bus along the road, just once an hour, but guess what - it was one of those buses from Taunton!

Not sure that this is exactly right - It is true that there was no bus service from Taunton to Exeter (the train did this journey), but Western National Service no. 262 ran from Taunton via Wellington to Cullompton 4 times per day, at which a connection could be had to Exeter by Devon General Service no. 27. The journey from Wellington to Exeter, including the change, took a tad over 2 hours. As you say, it was also possible (from Taunton but not Wellington) to take a number 278/9 to Honiton 3 times per day and change to a Devon General no. 4 to Exeter, but this was usully a longer journey as the connections were not good. Alternatively there was a no. 277 from Taunton and Wellington to Tiverton, where a connection could be had by Devon General no. 3 to Exeter.

Whatever, the dearth of service at the time, both road and rail, does rather show that demand was fairly limited!

1960s rationalisation - which stations might have survived on other lines?

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